thevalkyry
Queen of the Turtles
Rhonda - we were posting at the same time. Hear, hear!!
Thumbs Down to Adventure Scuba at CSSP Today
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Rhonda - we were posting at the same time. Hear, hear!!
What really buggs me is when classes of O/W students use the roof of the plane as a training platform......messes up vis and creates a much less enjoyable time for those of us just 'fun' dipping.
All in all, the status of a pavilion or platform being "reserved" or for the "exclusive" use of a shop is not really the issue here. It is a consideration, but not really the problem.
The problem is the offending Instructor dropping his students on top of an occupied platform. Allegedly, this was done with full knowledge of the platform below being already occupied. This action is irresponsible and a violation of PADI Ethical Standards:
IM, General Standards, Ethical Requirements, pp30
"2. Conduct yourself and your PADI-related activities in a professional
manner."
Clearly, this action can not be considered "Professional Behavior" by any reasonably prudent person.
IMHO, this would be the same as, say, at an intersection the light turns red, trapping a car in the intersection. Rather than wait for the vehicle to clear the intersection, you take off and ram them, saying you shouldn't be here the accident is your fault.
My concern in this incident is the Instructor creating a potentially dangerous situation with uncertified Open Water students. Ownership, or rights to, the platform in question really has no bearing.
The problem is the offending Instructor dropping his students on top of an occupied platform. Allegedly, this was done with full knowledge of the platform below being already occupied. This action is irresponsible and a violation of PADI Ethical Standards:
IM, General Standards, Ethical Requirements, pp30
"2. Conduct yourself and your PADI-related activities in a professional
manner."
Clearly, this action can not be considered "Professional Behavior" by any reasonably prudent person.
IMHO, this would be the same as, say, at an intersection the light turns red, trapping a car in the intersection. Rather than wait for the vehicle to clear the intersection, you take off and ram them, saying you shouldn't be here the accident is your fault.
My concern in this incident is the Instructor creating a potentially dangerous situation with uncertified Open Water students. Ownership, or rights to, the platform in question really has no bearing.
Guba
Contributor
I have no interest in either party (affiliation, that is...), but if I may I'd like to offer a solution to the protocol aspect of this and any similar future dilemmas.
I'm assuming that anyone using a platform attaches its float/flag to it. Would it be logical that a simple "rule" be that the instructor/shop that is "flying its flag" on a platform would have use of it REGARDLESS of whether it's reserved or not? (Stay with me, I'm not finished.) In this case, for example, there was a group down. That means they have the platform until their flag is moved. Of course, when and if the "owner" of the platform shows up, they get the platform...they DID pay for it, after all... but until the other group's flag is moved and their flag is in place, they stay off. If it's a big inconvenience, have someone get there early to set the float.
As for the described situation, I can imagine that the shop mentioned considers the orange float as enough of a signal that others should stay off. If that's the case, then why not make it a permanent flag instead of an orange float and stick with the rule...if someone's flag is on it, it's theirs. To my way of thinking, it's a simpler, more universal system that almost all divers would recognize. However, disputes should be settled on the surface, not at 30 feet with two sets of OW students in the mix.
Just my two cents worth, though (and some might consider that wildly overpriced...).
I'm assuming that anyone using a platform attaches its float/flag to it. Would it be logical that a simple "rule" be that the instructor/shop that is "flying its flag" on a platform would have use of it REGARDLESS of whether it's reserved or not? (Stay with me, I'm not finished.) In this case, for example, there was a group down. That means they have the platform until their flag is moved. Of course, when and if the "owner" of the platform shows up, they get the platform...they DID pay for it, after all... but until the other group's flag is moved and their flag is in place, they stay off. If it's a big inconvenience, have someone get there early to set the float.
As for the described situation, I can imagine that the shop mentioned considers the orange float as enough of a signal that others should stay off. If that's the case, then why not make it a permanent flag instead of an orange float and stick with the rule...if someone's flag is on it, it's theirs. To my way of thinking, it's a simpler, more universal system that almost all divers would recognize. However, disputes should be settled on the surface, not at 30 feet with two sets of OW students in the mix.
Just my two cents worth, though (and some might consider that wildly overpriced...).
When classes are training on a platform, how long are they generally there? 15 minutes? maybe 25? If diving is going to be fun, then everyone has to learn how to get there fast, then take it slow. I don't know anyone involved, but it sounds like maybe the instructor who dropped his class on the other one may be kinda stressed out, and is having a hard time relaxing, so I feel sorry for him. He probably drives to work in major traffic every day, and maybe someone was uptight with him because he was working another Saturday, or maybe there's too much month at the end of the money, or who knows? Hopefully he will find a way to chill a little and set better, more courteous examples for his students. We are so used to having our way and become so demanding sometimes, that we forget not to sweat the small stuff, and to care more about one another.
I don't remember seeing signs about platforms being reserved, only pavillions. Maybe if reserved platforms are the policy, it would be prudent for CSSP to provide instructions to divers who enter the park, such as "stay off the platforms with orange buoys?" And, I agree with Richerso that if you end up at a platform while submerged, it is impossible to tell if it's "reserved" unless they want to mark them so. How about "Adventure Scuba Priority Platform" sign underwater, or something that makes it clear that if AS has classes there, they have first pick for that platform? If someone's on the platform, keep moving? It's only logical.
I planned to take a new & nervous diver to a platform to help him get comfortable a week or so ago, and observed a class waiting in the water for their party to finish getting in the pond. I asked one of the obvious instructors if they were using the platform, and he said yes. So, I just chose another one to take my friend to for practice. I am very glad that noone came to the platform and dropped in on us, so that he was able to relax and not have to worry about being kicked or crowded out. I would think that most people could wait a few minutes and treat each other with courtesy. After all, it's a big pond.
I don't remember seeing signs about platforms being reserved, only pavillions. Maybe if reserved platforms are the policy, it would be prudent for CSSP to provide instructions to divers who enter the park, such as "stay off the platforms with orange buoys?" And, I agree with Richerso that if you end up at a platform while submerged, it is impossible to tell if it's "reserved" unless they want to mark them so. How about "Adventure Scuba Priority Platform" sign underwater, or something that makes it clear that if AS has classes there, they have first pick for that platform? If someone's on the platform, keep moving? It's only logical.
I planned to take a new & nervous diver to a platform to help him get comfortable a week or so ago, and observed a class waiting in the water for their party to finish getting in the pond. I asked one of the obvious instructors if they were using the platform, and he said yes. So, I just chose another one to take my friend to for practice. I am very glad that noone came to the platform and dropped in on us, so that he was able to relax and not have to worry about being kicked or crowded out. I would think that most people could wait a few minutes and treat each other with courtesy. After all, it's a big pond.
You can make all the comments and speculation you wish here. But it will accomplish nothing.
If you want to make a change then pass the suggestions on to those who are capable of making the changes. At least at that point you will have made an attempt at fixing what you perceive to be a problem.
I work for Adventure. I don't know who was involved. I may or may not find out at staff meeting next week. I am not a disinterested person so I am seriously limiting myself on what I say.
TwoBit
If you want to make a change then pass the suggestions on to those who are capable of making the changes. At least at that point you will have made an attempt at fixing what you perceive to be a problem.
I work for Adventure. I don't know who was involved. I may or may not find out at staff meeting next week. I am not a disinterested person so I am seriously limiting myself on what I say.
TwoBit
Well, Tom, as one who loves you, I can see why you need to limit yourself here. I am only speculating, as you say, and don't know any facts other than what has been posted. If this bothers you, I am sorry, really. I'm just thinking that some misunderstandings can be avoided by kindness and communication, and was thinking out loud about some possible solutions. The instructors and dm's are most affected by this, so they need to be the ones to work it out. Again, it's a forum board, so thoughts and opinions are going to be offered, although you are correct- if anyone cares enough about this matter to change it, they must go to the ones involved.
richerso
Contributor
Well enough said from me. I hope everyone could read the somewhat tongue-in-cheek sarcasm in my previous post.
Obviously, this is some sort of a problem; at least at some level. It doesn't affect me in anyway. I am a disinterested party. My only "tiny, little, itty bitty" problem with the situation as described is this.
The situation described clearly demonstrates what I have always suspected to be a problem. The methodology that CSSP and the sponsoring dive shops use (ie. this is my orange buoy) to mark their reserved platforms is an attempt at communicating reserved status to other divers.
It is not a wholly effective methodology. It is not conspicuously disclosed to customers entering the park. It should be improved. Improved communications / markings / signs will most likely eliminate these little misunderstandings and issues in the future. However, without any improvement in communications, we can expect these class collisions to occur again in the future. But, no one asks me for my opinion on these things so I have chosen to remain silent on the issue (at least until now). And still, no one is asking for my opinion.
Now, after a class collision does occur, the behavior of the instructors, either professional or not, is a different issue / discussion.
IMHO, the fact that certain platforms are "permanently reserved" is not conspicuously disclosed to the paying customers of the park at the time of entry. As a paying customer entering the park, I think it is reasonable to expect that if certain portions of the park still remain "private" after I pay my money, this fact should be conspicuosly disclosed to me at the time of entry. This way, as a consumer, I can make an informed decision; rather than paying my money to enter the park only to discover, after the fact, that only a portion of the park is available to me and certain other portions are still considered to be private. Especially, since those private portions are not clearly identified when approaching from a submerged position.
Obviously, this is some sort of a problem; at least at some level. It doesn't affect me in anyway. I am a disinterested party. My only "tiny, little, itty bitty" problem with the situation as described is this.
The situation described clearly demonstrates what I have always suspected to be a problem. The methodology that CSSP and the sponsoring dive shops use (ie. this is my orange buoy) to mark their reserved platforms is an attempt at communicating reserved status to other divers.
It is not a wholly effective methodology. It is not conspicuously disclosed to customers entering the park. It should be improved. Improved communications / markings / signs will most likely eliminate these little misunderstandings and issues in the future. However, without any improvement in communications, we can expect these class collisions to occur again in the future. But, no one asks me for my opinion on these things so I have chosen to remain silent on the issue (at least until now). And still, no one is asking for my opinion.
Now, after a class collision does occur, the behavior of the instructors, either professional or not, is a different issue / discussion.
IMHO, the fact that certain platforms are "permanently reserved" is not conspicuously disclosed to the paying customers of the park at the time of entry. As a paying customer entering the park, I think it is reasonable to expect that if certain portions of the park still remain "private" after I pay my money, this fact should be conspicuosly disclosed to me at the time of entry. This way, as a consumer, I can make an informed decision; rather than paying my money to enter the park only to discover, after the fact, that only a portion of the park is available to me and certain other portions are still considered to be private. Especially, since those private portions are not clearly identified when approaching from a submerged position.
I am officially asking Richerso for his oppinion.
Great points in this discussion.
I find it interesting that there are so many different issues buried in this one circumstance.
as jchapman would say, "I'm just sayin...."
OP
I've had some time to cool down on this, but am still frustrated thinking about it.
Yes, there needs to be some better communications at the park. The other thing is, not every shop comes out every weekend, so should we just not be using those platforms at all? It's always been treated as the platforms are usable until the dive shops show up and put their float on them since CSSP started their policy.
We had our float on the platform and were about five minutes from being done (and able to move) before Adventure even showed up at the platform with a float.
Problem 2, and the big one for me as an AI, is that it was totally ridiculous for that instructor to drop his class on another class. There was nothing professional about that.
Some have suggested contacting the shop, but from what I know about how the shop is run I doubt anything would change. I'm sure Meg would listen to what I have to say, but I doubt anything would even be said to the instructor involved.
I am glad to see it cost them some future business though. I know that's a rough thing to say, but all too often today money is the only thing that talks - and it did in this case.
Yes, there needs to be some better communications at the park. The other thing is, not every shop comes out every weekend, so should we just not be using those platforms at all? It's always been treated as the platforms are usable until the dive shops show up and put their float on them since CSSP started their policy.
We had our float on the platform and were about five minutes from being done (and able to move) before Adventure even showed up at the platform with a float.
Problem 2, and the big one for me as an AI, is that it was totally ridiculous for that instructor to drop his class on another class. There was nothing professional about that.
Some have suggested contacting the shop, but from what I know about how the shop is run I doubt anything would change. I'm sure Meg would listen to what I have to say, but I doubt anything would even be said to the instructor involved.
I am glad to see it cost them some future business though. I know that's a rough thing to say, but all too often today money is the only thing that talks - and it did in this case.
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