Thread Split - Unable to breathe

[Doppler]

Good point.

But really, it's rude to tell someone he's a poor student, or didn't pay attention in class. There's no reason for such an assertion, even if it's true.

So if you want to say something like, "Since you're asking that question, either the class you took didn't teach you the concepts that you were supposed to be taught, or you weren't paying attention", well, you're just going to hurt the guy's feelings, that's all there is to it.

And what's the point of that? So you can feel superior?

All that's needed is for the newby's lack of knowledge to be remedied. He doesn't need to be made to feel like a moron in the process.

If the intention is to bring to light inadequacies in scuba classes today, I would suggest a separate thread be started.

Now, I could take serious offense at your posting Matt :shocked2:

You've made it sound as though I told the OP that his training was at fault and that I do this often to feel superior!





See how easy it is to make a wrong impression on the internet?

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I teach around 2,500 students a year a different but somewhat related physical and knowledge based course. I have done so for over 11 years. I have to say that some people just want the Certificate because it is required for something they want to or have to do. No matter what you tell them, some will come in late for class, late from breaks and miss information. You can't hold up the entire group to wait for them. I have taken time from my lunch and breaks to try to bring students up to the required skill levels only to have them complain I am discriminating against them or picking on them because I didn't ask the rest of the class to do stuff during breaks:doh:

I have a set of criteria that must be met to issue a certificate. If I vary from those requirements either too easy or too hard myself and my employer are likely to face legal consequences. I have had students who just squeaked through do brilliantly in emergencies and some who were brilliant in class lose it in emergencies. You can only do the best job you can. Unless they practice or use the skill and knowledge both will erode over time. The time required for that loss is as variable as people. I have had students in my classes who jump on a piece of information I teach and say they have never heard that before when I know for a fact they have been in several of my classes and I present that information every class.

I believe it is impossible to judge the instructor by one student or judge a student by one event or even their activities on a given day. When knowledge is needed here then knowledge should be presented in a supportive nonjudgmental way. Information presented in this way is normally gratefully accepted. When information is presented in a judgmental way many people are more likely to become defensive, resistant and the sting of the words stay longer than the valuable information imparted!

That said if we over analyze every time we want to post we could get so hung up we may never post anything! If people often misunderstand what I am saying I need to look at myself and the way I am coming across. Scuba skills are not the only ones we need to practice!

More on topic. Thanks for this thread. It has made me think that there are a couple skills I need to practice. I haven't done a CESA since being on course! I think that needs to be on the agenda for my next dive!

 

[FPDocMatt]

Now, I could take serious offense at your posting Matt :shocked2: You've made it sound as though I told the OP that his training was at fault and that I do this often to feel superior! See how easy it is to make a wrong impression on the internet?

I didn't think you were the one who criticized the OP, I thought it was Jim. And I was replying to your post, so I figured you'd understand I didn't mean you personally, but rather anyone who posts such a criticism.

But after I made the post, it occurred to me that you might take it the way you did (or the way you said you might have done). All I can say is that I didn't intend it that way at all.

If you're asking me to have more tolerance for people who offend but did not mean to offend-- Frankly, I don't think they are the problem. There is a trend toward criticism of the incompetence of newbies (or to the inadequacy of the training of newbies) here on SB. I've been making a big deal of it lately, and here it pops up again, plain as day, right in your eye. I don't think this trend is just unintended consequences. There's something behind it. It's only the least socially aware individual who would think a statement such as, "The fact that you ask this question shows that your training was woefully inadequate" is not offensive. Therefore, I can only infer that the majority of such comments are intended to offend.

And when I look for an explanation of such behavior, I naturally look for the pay-off for the offender. What is the pay-off? So this leads me to speculate that it might be that he or she gets something out of putting someone else down. When most human beings do this, it's because they feel in some way inadequate, so that they have to put someone else down to build themselves up. Thus they feel superior to the other person whose training was inadequate or who didn't pay attention in class.

We're all human beings, we share the same basic psychological and emotional structure. So when one human being intentionally hurts another human being's feelings, it hurts the person who is doing the hurting. He's hurting himself by hurting someone else. So the payoff has to be something even greater than the pain of hurting another person. It's not just something that happens by accident, not over and over again as I see it here on SB. Nobody would intentionally cause pain in so many newbies over and over again, and be able to say that it was just unintentional and not meant to offend.

One possibility is that it's just a sort of habit that the whole forum has gotten into. It's part of the culture. Someone asks a question that reveals inadequate training, and automatically seven people chime in with, "The fact that you ask this question shows that you got nothing out of your OW class." Maybe it's time to just pause, and say, "You know, I don't know why I keep doing that, but since it's bound to offend somebody from time to time, I think I'll stop doing it."

I wouldn't be putting so much time and energy into even discussing this issue if I didn't value so highly the interactions with SB members. I've participated in lots of forums on the Internet over the years. This forum is by far the most stimulating, and in fact it's one of the most positive as well. The vast majority of the time, the SB members are helpful and mutually supportive. I seem to have fallen into this role of Scuba Board Critic. But I'm really just another new scuba diver. One of the really wonderful things about scuba diving is that it only works if those who do it are mutually supportive. Our very lives, from one moment to the next, depend on the support of others. If the very essence of scuba diving is mutual support, then by golly let's be supportive.

:catherine: :gondolalove: :uwphotographer:

 

[Ayisha]

Matt, I think a lot of the "culture" that you're experiencing stems from the frustration that many divers feel about the level of dedication that some instructors show. It's not only instructors who feel that frustration, but also many divers who have been around long enough to compare the way they were trained to the way it "used to be" to how they've progressed by having mentors or reading helpful information on the board and putting it to use. Some instructors are excellent, dedicated professionals who show empathy and persevere until students are profient or they do not certify the student, but many instructors will pass students without ever really teaching or certifying to the standards.

In real life, some people are more blunt than others, and it comes across even clearer in print. Over the internet, some people say things they may not say to someone in a face-to-face conversation, but you know that. I think most of us try to focus more on the message and judge it on it's own validity (or not), skip the grandstanding, take the good with the bad and try to see the whole picture from the varying points of view expressed. And there's always the "ignore" feature. I think most of the posters on SB genuinely want to help and spend some time going through threads long past the point of asking many questions themselves. We're all learning all the time, and we all should remember that and remember how it feels to be a brand new diver taking everything in...

 

[ScubaDeb1159]

This is why I read everything, but not post. I have so many questions to ask about something that happen to me Last June on a dive trip in Palm Bch that put me in St. Marys Trauma centr for 9 days. but I know as soon as I put it on here, everyone is gonna call me stupid, and rip me a new xxxhole. Sooo, I'm not telling it!!! Hehehe. And the thing is, I really do need to talk to divers, and maybe even help a few...

 

[Ben_ca]

IMHO I would rather someone be rude and blunt with me like (Like Matt alludes that Doppler or Jim Lapenta would do) than have someone lead me on with kind and gentle words (like Matt proposes). I'll get over hurt feelings... leading me on with kind words leading me to believe I'm a better diver than I am does me no favors and could lead to a disastrous ending. One much more tragic than hurt feelings

That's why I like video debriefs... the camera doesn't lie and you can't talk your way out of what the camera captured.

On topic: +1 on the partially opened valve

 

[DandyDon]

This is why I read everything, but not post. I have so many questions to ask about something that happen to me Last June on a dive trip in Palm Bch that put me in St. Marys Trauma centr for 9 days. but I know as soon as I put it on here, everyone is gonna call me stupid, and rip me a new xxxhole. Sooo, I'm not telling it!!! Hehehe. And the thing is, I really do need to talk to divers, and maybe even help a few...

That is a problem here. Hope you will post anyway. Some of us want to help...

 

[ScubaDeb1159]

When you have beat your head on a wall so many times, and know that it could of been something I did wrong, and then all you do is read SB and look for answers, and gain 30lb bc diving has been your life, and your told not to ever dive again, But I've not read anything about a diver diving after having this happen. So I've been diving twice after , and going again at Ginnie Springs on the 30,31 &1st, and I will be diving!! I'll be very careful. But nobody really knows whats gonna happen, I don't think there is enough reserch out there, I've found out that once your told not to dive , then people just stop diving,,, Hello, I can't do that... I know I'll never get to teach now, but I can dive!!

 

[gcarter]

When you have beat your head on a wall so many times, and know that it could of been something I did wrong, and then all you do is read SB and look for answers, and gain 30lb bc diving has been your life, and your told not to ever dive again, But I've not read anything about a diver diving after having this happen. So I've been diving twice after , and going again at Ginnie Springs on the 30,31 &1st, and I will be diving!! I'll be very careful. But nobody really knows whats gonna happen, I don't think there is enough reserch out there, I've found out that once your told not to dive , then people just stop diving,,, Hello, I can't do that... I know I'll never get to teach now, but I can dive!!

IMO, this definitely sounds like a story worth sharing. At the end of the day, any critical responses that result will be just words on a computer screen from people you will likely never meet - don't take that kind of thing to heart, it is / should be no more than a whisper in your life.

On the other hand, you could provide some learning for others, and maybe even get some useful information for yourself from some of the many posters here that have a wealth of experience and knowledge, in diving and in medicine (not me LOL although I never let that stop me from offering an opinion).

 

[ScubaDeb1159]

Your right, And I have told my friends to put on SB everything they know if anything ever goes wrong on a dive for me... And now that nobody has blasted me yet, I will be back on here tomorrow telling my story, and I'll also be the one that's gonna keep diving. So everyone will know firsthand what happen to me on SB... One reason this has been so hard on me it happen one week before I was to take my IE, Breaks my heart!! Everything I've put into this, money, time, working out and working two jobs to pay for classes/gear in another 3 states... But anyway what's done is done, right!!! It's late, so I will post on here tomorrow if anybody want's to hear it.... My first 3 post tonight "WoooHooo!!