Thread Split - Unable to breathe

[FPDocMatt]

I can see Jim's point, though. We have an OW diver with Nitrox training, and doesn't know one of the most-common "sort of OOA" situations. If I were the OP, I would worry - what else don't I know?

The information imparted by Jim's statements is perfectly valid. It's just that the phrasing or the wording makes it sounds insulting. What's more important to communicate: "Your class was bad", or "You don't know anything." I submit that "Your class was bad" is perfectly valid. "You don't know anything" is insulting, even if true.

It's difficult to find a truly tactful way of telling someone what Jim wanted to say without sounding insulting. The reason is that the quality of the OP's education is not the real reason for the thread. The reason for the thread is to give him information.

The problem (as nicely expressed by manni-yunk) is that, on Scuba Board, if your training was inadequate and you want information, you are pretty much going to have to have the inadequacy of your training pointed out. And that's not an easy thing to hear.

So I would submit that the inadequacy of a newby's training is not pertinent to a newby's question. It's important, but it's not an important thing to lay in the newby's lap. After all, he's already completed the course. You're just telling him he doesn't know anything, which is insulting.

If you want to make the point that his training sucked, though, there are certainly more tactful ways to put it. How about: "The fact that you ask this question tells me that the nitrox class you took did not impart to you the information that it should have. When you take future scuba courses, I highly recommend that you seek out a different instructor." You see, this is no longer insulting, because it doesn't sound like you're accusing the newby of being a dumb-ass.

 

[Jax]

The information imparted by Jim's statements is perfectly valid. It's just that the phrasing or the wording makes it sounds insulting. What's more important to communicate: "Your class was bad", or "You don't know anything." I submit that "Your class was bad" is perfectly valid. "You don't know anything" is insulting, even if true.

It's difficult to find a truly tactful way of telling someone what Jim wanted to say without sounding insulting. The reason is that the quality of the OP's education is not the real reason for the thread. The reason for the thread is to give him information.

The problem (as nicely expressed by manni-yunk) is that, on Scuba Board, if your training was inadequate and you want information, you are pretty much going to have to have the inadequacy of your training pointed out. And that's not an easy thing to hear.

So I would submit that the inadequacy of a newby's training is not pertinent to a newby's question. It's important, but it's not an important thing to lay in the newby's lap. After all, he's already completed the course. You're just telling him he doesn't know anything, which is insulting.

If you want to make the point that his training sucked, though, there are certainly more tactful ways to put it. How about: "The fact that you ask this question tells me that the nitrox class you took did not impart to you the information that it should have. When you take future scuba courses, I highly recommend that you seek out a different instructor." You see, this is no longer insulting, because it doesn't sound like you're accusing the newby of being a dumb-ass.

So, it wasn't the actual post that was the problem. You would prefer to have it presented in the way you express above.

 

[The Chairman]

If you want to make the point that his training sucked,

Unless you witnessed the training or know the instructor, it's nigh on to impossible to make this deduction. Recently I had a former student dive with me and I was shocked. Their trim and kicking techniques were great when we finished their class, but not so great now. Why? Time can be the great destroyer of information and even skills. What was clear last week may not be so obvious today. On top of that, we have seen great divers here on ScubaBoard have serious mental lapses. I remember with a smile when H2Andy suggested that we use water instead of lead as ballast since it weighed nearly as much. We all had a good laugh at and then with Andy as his fallacious assumptions were exposed. Can you blame me for my student's lack of skills? Can you blame Andy's instructor for his mental lapse? I would hope not. This is why ScubaBoard is such an important and awesome resource. It's ongoing education and a constant re-alignment of the basic principles and concepts for any Scuba Diver. I have been corrected more than once and I have always appreciated it. I remember one time someone suggested that I had gotten beaten up in a certain thread and that I would be more cautious in what I suggested. Balderdash! This isn't a contest to see who's right more than anyone else. It's a place to learn and to improve on your deficiencies. Only the fool sees no room for improvement.

 

[Doppler]

How about: "The fact that you ask this question tells me that the nitrox class you took did not impart to you the information that it should have. When you take future scuba courses, I highly recommend that you seek out a different instructor."

Unfortunately, that makes the instructor sound like a dumb-ass or the training materials sound like crappp... which may be the case but not definitely.

Every day, people get into serious car accidents because they ignore the warning that texting and driving is dangerous. Who's at fault? People ignore or forget stuff they have been told is important... their training and the folks who delivered it are not the ones at fault... necessarily.

 

[ajtoady]

Unless you witnessed the training or know the instructor, it's nigh on to impossible to make this deduction. Recently I had a former student dive with me and I was shocked. Their trim and kicking techniques were great when we finished their class, but not so great now. Why? Time can be the great destroyer of information and even skills. What was clear last week may not be so obvious today. On top of that, we have seen great divers here on ScubaBoard have serious mental lapses. I remember with a smile when H2Andy suggested that we use water instead of lead as ballast since it weighed nearly as much. We all had a good laugh at and then with Andy as his fallacious assumptions were exposed. Can you blame me for my student's lack of skills? Can you blame Andy's instructor for his mental lapse? I would hope not. This is why ScubaBoard is such an important and awesome resource. It's ongoing education and a constant re-alignment of the basic principles and concepts for any Scuba Diver. I have been corrected more than once and I have always appreciated it. I remember one time someone suggested that I had gotten beaten up in a certain thread and that I would be more cautious in what I suggested. Balderdash! This isn't a contest to see who's right more than anyone else. It's a place to learn and to improve on your deficiencies. Only the fool sees no room for improvement.

I have to agree fully. In my opinion, Complacency happens. The flaw in human nature that happens when life happens. I try to keep it fresh but I am only human and I WILL make mistakes or bad choices. With any luck my training and constant practice will keep me alive. Every situation is a learning adventure if viewed in the right perspective. How you address it is your option.

ps: I think it's time for the Bunny Costume Pete!!

 

[Hawkwood]

Unfortunately, that makes the instructor sound like a dumb-ass or the training materials sound like crappp... which may be the case but not definitely.

Every day, people get into serious car accidents because they ignore the warning that texting and driving is dangerous. Who's at fault? People ignore or forget stuff they have been told is important... their training and the folks who delivered it are not the ones at fault... necessarily.

I like that.

I had an Enriched Air class about a month ago. I had a number of tanks of different mixes, different analyzers, etc. ready to go and all the materials in place.

One student showed up late, with the expectation that all he had to do was write an exam. He was pressed for time as he was leaving the next morning on a dive trip (hence the class) and still needed time to pack. He was quite non-plussed that I was going to teach him dammit and it was going to take more than a couple of hours. I taught the class regardless. Who is at fault if he did not want to be there and may not have retained anything?

Bill

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Who is at fault if he did not want to be there and may not have retained anything?

... depends on whether or not he walked out with a certification ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Hawkwood]

OUCH!...I suppose I set myself up for that.

Bill

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Sorry ... I've had to have "the talk" with a student from time to time ... it usually starts out with the question "How badly do you want a c-card?" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Hawkwood]

There was a "we all have to work at this" chat at the start. The class did go well, and there was a fair amount of interaction with the other folks in the class. He certainly walked out knowing more than when he arrived. Goodness, I'm starting to sound like one of those Instructors Matt asked about!
Sorry for the hijack.