Thoughts on the primary donate debate

[Gerbs]

From my reading, the position of the opponents of primary donate are:

1. Donating the regulator that I breathe out of, then trying my secondary regulator and going to buddy breathing if it should fail in a non-fixable manner is dangerous.

However, donating the regulator that I breathe out of, ignoring my secondary regulator and going straight to buddy breathing is safe and a required skill called buddy breathing.

2. Because divers are prone to panic under OOA, you, as the donor, need to stay on your regulator to avoid endangering yourself.

However, because divers are well trained, and not prone to panic, they will retrieve a regulator that is strapped on to the point of being needed to be cut loose, lost behind the donating diver and/or attached somewhere hidden and obscure on the diver near the chest area. Also, a malfunctioning regulator for the recipient is not a problem, as the donor is not panicking and is able to initiate buddy breathing by donating their primary regulator.

3. Because under stress a donor cannot depend on thought, the hose must be stowed so as to deploy automatically, so nodding your head to deploy the hose is not something that can be expected of people.

However, because donors and recipients are not under stress during OOA, a bungeed knot of hose next to the tank to be untangled isn't an issue.

Have I missed any?

I'll concede that primary donation for independent doubles with a long hose is a different issue, same if you are on a rebreather. For a professional rescuer, a spare breathing apparatus (tested and maintained for just this purpose) is the sensible recourse. Twin hose regulators are a special case as well.

I've yet to see any arguments that would convince me that for a diver diving as part of a buddy team/group using single-hose OC gear with either back mounted single or double tanks a primary donate / "Hog Wrapped" long hose primary solution is not either a safe viable alternative or even the preferential solution.

Gerbs

ps. The Association of German Sports Divers (VDST) has, related to my by 3rd party as anecdotal evidence, found that in semi-realistic conditions (pair of higher certification aspirants, one gets told to fall behind and remove their reg, told to wait for 15~20 seconds or until the other diver realises what happens, then goes for air from the diver that has swum ahead) divers trained in (secondary) regulator receive tend to revert to primary take with increasing probability as time without gas is extended. Oh, 60 seconds breathhold and 60m distance on breathold is a prerequisite for this certification.

 

[rstofer]

I believe that 'primary take' is going to happen. Plan on it! Just have your octo on a necklace and it's right where you need it. Of course, it is good to breathe off the octo before you need it. Just to be sure it really works.

If the octo fails, the 'primary take' or 'primary donate' just morphs into buddy breathing.

I have not perfected the long hose idea. I have one of my regs set up for this but I don't have enough experience with it to know whether I will keep it. I may revert to the standard length hose.

But I like the idea of getting the victim away from me. We can dance later.

Richard

 

[Gerbs]

It's always a possibility that things escalate that far, yes, my point exactly, make sure the hoses are pointed downwards by the 1st stage and yes.

Gerbs

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Primary take gets stiff arm then primary donate. Primary take is a clear sign of weak training. A low on air or out of air is not a life threatening situation for a properly trained OW diver. Except in the case of flat out equipment failure OOA is stupid, result of poor planning, inattention to detail, and lack of experience and training. But for a properly trained diver a low on air or even OOA is an inconvenience. Annoying, cause for a good ribbing, but not life threatening. Ask my OW students who have experienced OOA, under controlled conditions of course, but by the time we get to that their buddy skills and situational awareness are such that anything I throw at them is not a life threatening situation.

 

[InTheDrink]

Hmmm, mods, perhaps my thread (below) should be merged with this one as it's pretty much the same question??? Or mine can be zapped.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/315762-primary-donation.html

TIA,
J

 

[InTheDrink]

Primary take gets stiff arm then primary donate. Primary take is a clear sign of weak training. A low on air or out of air is not a life threatening situation for a properly trained OW diver. Except in the case of flat out equipment failure OOA is stupid, result of poor planning, inattention to detail, and lack of experience and training. But for a properly trained diver a low on air or even OOA is an inconvenience. Annoying, cause for a good ribbing, but not life threatening. Ask my OW students who have experienced OOA, under controlled conditions of course, but by the time we get to that their buddy skills and situational awareness are such that anything I throw at them is not a life threatening situation.

Jim,
I don't even think it's a question of training. As far as I can see it, so far, primary (donation or take)/long hose/necklaced backup is a better solution to the problem, no matter who's asking you for gas and how they're asking you (politely or less than politely.

J

 

[openmindOW]

This issue has been debated on SB a lot.

The reality is that ose length is an issue. Rental gear around the world is not uniform. If you have a real short hose, you can't hand it off.

I favor teaching hand-off of both the Primary and of the Octo. I also favor teaching of Buddy Breathing.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[mrfixitchapman]

Okay. So I have a long primary hose. I know how to buddy breathe. I have a secondary on my necklace that I can pick it up and breathe from it without using my hands. I don't feel threatened by a nearby diver who's gas has run out.

Did I miss something?

DC

 

[Gerbs]

Primary take gets stiff arm then primary donate. Primary take is a clear sign of weak training.

In my opinion, primary take is (only) one stage of Panic before bolting to the surface. Training keeps the panic further back and in most cases removes the need - If you are within one breath of your buddy there is no problem that can't be solved in an orderly fashion. Primary take is a symptom of something gone wrong - I'm not sure if resisting primary take makes panic of the OOA diver worse, so I'd qualify my position as "Primary Donate if possible, accepting that Primary Take may happen anyway, and is at least better than being dragged to the surface by a panicking diver"

But for a properly trained diver a low on air or even OOA is an inconvenience. Annoying, cause for a good ribbing, but not life threatening. Ask my OW students who have experienced OOA, under controlled conditions of course, but by the time we get to that their buddy skills and situational awareness are such that anything I throw at them is not a life threatening situation.

Agree 100%. Can't think of anything worthwhile to add! (Other than the implied "Diving with someone else of at least rudimentary skills")

Gerbs

 

[FishOutUvH2O]

so I'd qualify my position as "Primary Donate if possible, accepting that Primary Take may happen anyway, and is at least better than being dragged to the surface by a panicking diver". . .

That seems a lot more reasonable than "stiff arming" to teach a person in a heightened sense of fear, or worse, a panic situation, a lesson.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong (like I have to ask), but as far as I know teaching "primary donate" has been around longer than the long hose/bungee'd safe-second (or even the "requirement" to have a safe-second) has. I believe primary donate has been taught as long as the integrated safe-second/inflater has been around. And they've been around for about 30 years now.