Thoughts on the future of Sharm

[shortdivemedic]

Crowley
I am in KSA diving now and a trip to Sharm is on my bucket list . I have been here about a year and half now. If you have any ideas of places to go or stay while I am there let me know. I will not be bringing my dive buddy so I will have to go with groups or find one for the time I am there. This will be a 5-7 day trip I am sure

Michael

 

[macrobubble]

And how do you measure they are not?

Indeed, although what you mentioned about the inequality etc... is not true. You have to differentiate between the concept (Islam) and the practice some people like to do (sometimes in the name of Islam).

I judge any society by the adherance to basic human rights.
If those rights are withheld, if people are imprisoned or killed because their don´t conform to the view of the "rulers" (whoever they are), I have a hard time believing the majority of this society is happy with their personal situation. I always ask myself a very simple question: What would happen to someone in this or that country if he were to stand in a market square and would should: The leader, Mr. X, is an assh...!" As nasty and insulting as that would be, it is his right to have free speech. The only recourse of Mr. X in a civilized country should be to file a civil lawsuit for slander and defamation. If the police arrests you, something is wrong with this society. Can I express my political views without fear? Can I write and say whatever I want without being imprisoned? Does my gender set limits to my personal developement? Am I allowed to believe whatever I want without being disadvantaged? Do I have free access to the media worldwide and can I publish anything without being cencored? If these standards are not met I simply don´t believe the majority of any society is "happy".

Secondly: Yes, philosophical and political theories have always been misused and perverted to consolidate political power. The same is true for religious believes. Christianity has had long powerstruggles and has fought wars "in the name of God". They have burned "witches", imprisoned scientists and killed the innocent to consolidate their grip on power. Christianity has fortunately overcome such barbaric methods. The Islam has been misused during the last decades in a similar way on many occations. But, as in the Bible (which I have read), you can find in the Qur´an (which I have also read, btw.) any justification for anything you want. It is all a matter of interpretation. But the interpretations of some people unfortunately have a heavy impact on other peoples lives. Some islamic nations and their leaders use their interpretation to suppress the population, to kill, maim and imprison anybody with a different view. Other islamic nations are (more or less) tolerant towards "non-believers". Egypt was one of the more tolerant states (far from perfect, though). If the radical views were to gain a majority here in the future, and who is to say that this is impossible, this society would change drastically - with all the social, political and economic consequences. Uneducated people are easy prey for demagoges, hardliners and every charlatan who has easy, simple answers for difficult questions. And the egyptian population unfortunately is very uneducated in large parts...

If in Egypt were to be a system similar to Turkey, a secular constitution, freedom and human rights regardless of ones believe, with the army as "watchdog" to step in if these were threatened, all would be well. If the outcome would be having a party or people in power that hold "The One And Only" truth, I fear for the worst.

Basing political decisions on religious believes is leading to desaster for everybody!

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

But, as in the Bible (which I have read), you can find in the Qur´an (which I have also read, btw.) any justification for anything you want. It is all a matter of interpretation.

This is simply because you've read a translated version. Even for us, native Arabic speakers, we (here I mean the people with some religious knowledge) don't read the Quraan, interpret it and find justifications to whatever we want! Interpretation has rules, and it's a vast branch of science. When we want to interpret something, we refer to one of the accredited interpretations.

 

[macrobubble]

This is simply because you've read a translated version. Even for us, native Arabic speakers, we (here I mean the people with some religious knowledge) don't read the Quraan, interpret it and find justifications to whatever we want! Interpretation has rules, and it's a vast branch of science. When we want to interpret something, we refer to one of the accredited interpretations.

Hmm...
Wouldn´t you say that the Saudis and the Iranian religious leadership interpret the (same) Qur´an differently where it affects the daily lives, the rights and responsibility of their people?
Wouldn´t you agree, that some interpretations of islamic terrorist groups have backing from one or the other religious authority?
Who decides who or what is an "accredited" source for interpretations?

Also in christianity the words of the Bible are seen in different light by different christian groups and churches with different interpretations and different implementations in daily live. Jehovas witnesses for example stupidly refuse blood donations for religious reasons. Others denounce the scientific approach of evolution and believe verbatim that God created the earth around 6000 years ago and man and dinosaurs lived side by side. They all find (or try to find) justification for that in the Bible. Doesn´t that hold true for the Qur´an as well? I surely am no scholar in religious matters. I just see the world as it is and ask myself questions. If self-proclaimed islamic terrorists claim religious justification for blowing up a bus or a restaurant full of innocent victims, what islamic authority denounces them publicly? Where is the open outcry of all muslims worldwide if Allah is abused as justification for horrible acts? Was, for example, bin Laden a true muslim? He justified his actions with a crude mixture of politics and religion and quoted the holy book on more than one occation doing that. Why do the muslim scholars of all colors not get together and publicly and forcefully denounce terror and violence as a means to achieve political ends, if there is only one true interpretation, valid for all muslims?

Any religion, as I see it, should give guidance on how to live a peaceful, tolerant and happy life. Any religion should further understanding and love - not hatred and violence. Maybe I am naive, but a prefere a loving and forgiving God over a feared and vengeful one any day. A God who has created all these wonders surely does not want his children to kill themsselves of in His name. He wants us to live in harmony and peace and to sort out our differences with the weapons of mind and words and not with guns and bombs! And I am sure He does not want one group surpressing or killing the other in His name!

Well, I´m afraid we got a little off topic here...
But the journey of Egypt into the unknown, politically and religiously, will have an impact on the future not only for Sharm.

I wish a happy Ramadan to everybody and peace and understanding for all of us!

 

[Red Sea Leonfish]

Regardless of the respective views and opinions of politocal parties such as Freedom and Justice and religious groups such as the Muslim Brotherhood, the fact remains that perceptions of hardline extremism amongst non-secular Islamic governments in certain countries continue to concern European and other Western holidaymakers. Between the various "holy wars", "oil wars", "liberations" and "terrorist acts" underway across the world from Libya to Oslo, people are wary generally of extremism and any perception that Egypt is slipping away from the relative stability of the Mubarack era (brutally enforced as it was) towards instability and the threat of Islamic extremism (misguided as it may be) based upon the supposed word of Allah (mistranslated as it probably is).

Right now, given the choice between Sharm and - say - Southern Turkey, a lot of European and other Western holidaymakers would rather opt for the realtive stability of a well recognised tourist destination with a healthy traffic of packagae holidays, smiley European tour reps that meet you from the plane and a military that probably isn't about to end up in armed conflict with the general population.

When I left Egypt last time, various people asked when I'd be going back. I don't actually have any holiday to take until next year anyway but, even then, I had to admit that it all depends on what happens in the next six months.

Just out of interest, I typed "Revolution Is Bad for Business" into google and came up with the top link for the following article from spiegel.de:
Revolution Is Bad for Business: No Quick Fix for Arab Youth's Economic Woes - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Most of the points made remain valid five months later.

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

Hmm...
Wouldn´t you say that the Saudis and the Iranian religious leadership interpret the (same) Qur´an differently where it affects the daily lives, the rights and responsibility of their people?
Wouldn´t you agree, that some interpretations of islamic terrorist groups have backing from one or the other religious authority?
Who decides who or what is an "accredited" source for interpretations?

Either you know exactly what you're talking about and doing some maneuvers, or you don't know sh!t.

Saudis and Iranians are very different, to the extent that each party does not consider the other Muslim. Is this enough reason to interpret the same source in a different manner?

Regarding the terrorism, the world needs to re-define this word and uncover the real motives behind "gluing" it to Muslims.

Who decides what's accredited, the place's religious scientists. If you want someone who's "accredited" from almost all the parties, try Al Shaarawy.

 

[macrobubble]

Either you know exactly what you're talking about and doing some maneuvers, or you don't know sh!t.

Saudis and Iranians are very different, to the extent that each party does not consider the other Muslim. Is this enough reason to interpret the same source in a different manner?

Regarding the terrorism, the world needs to re-define this word and uncover the real motives behind "gluing" it to Muslims.

Who decides what's accredited, the place's religious scientists. If you want someone who's "accredited" from almost all the parties, try Al Shaarawy.

Why the aggressiveness?
I know what I´m talking about and you just illustrated my point!
Of course they are very different! That´s just what I wrote. Because there are different factions there are different interpretations - something you denied before. And every school is convinced they, and only they, are in possesion of the one and only truth. And that´s the problem...

I concede that one mans terrorist is the other mans freedom fighter. That has always been the case and is of course a political thing. Winners write history!
But there is no "glueing" to muslims. It is a sad fact that the majority of terror attacs during the last decades have been performed by muslims in a self-declared war against the west. What just has happened in Norway is the exception to the rule. Important: I do not hold the religion of Islam responsible for these acts. Responsible are those people that abuse a religion for political or other motives and use religion to justify the killing of innocents.
To strap a bomb around your waist and blow up a restaurant or a market square, believing that this act will bring you directly to heaven is nothing but madness. Have you not seen the interviews on TV where mothers hope their little sons will grow up to be a "martyr" one day? Have you not watched the videos on the net where terrorist justified their act in front of a camera before they blew themselves up in the middle of a crowd? Muslims who close their eyes and deny that there really is a problem with religiously motivated terrorism don´t do themselves and their religion no favor. A problem does not dissapear simply because you ignore it.

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

Why the aggressiveness?
I know what I´m talking about and you just illustrated my point!
Of course they are very different! That´s just what I wrote. Because there are different factions there are different interpretations - something you denied before. And every school is convinced they, and only they, are in possesion of the one and only truth. And that´s the problem...

Aggressiveness, IMHO, is part of the western "democratic" scheme some people are trying to enforce in Egypt.

I've never denied different Quraan interpretations. Actually I've said "one of the accredited interpretations", which means there's more than one. What I denied is the fact that some people try to interpret Quraan themselves without referring to a reliable source, which you mentioned implicitly when you said you've read Quraan and can find justification to whatever you want.

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

Have you not seen the interviews on TV where mothers hope their little sons will grow up to be a "martyr" one day? Have you not watched the videos on the net where terrorist justified their act in front of a camera before they blew themselves up in the middle of a crowd?

What I've seen is fair enough. I've seen an entire nation with thousands-of-years civilization being "whipped out" because it posses "mass destruction weapons".

 

[macrobubble]

What I've seen is fair enough. I've seen an entire nation with thousands-of-years civilization being "whipped out" because it posses "mass destruction weapons".

Oh, c´mon now, don´t do that!
The invasion of Iraq was a barbaric, unjustifyable act by a mad man in the White House, based on lies, who needed to rally his people behind a common enemy because of terrible approval rates at home. Cheney and his cohorts (Wolfowitz and others) had monetary gains to expect (Haliburton) and were (are) dreaming of easier access to oil. What does this have to do with what we discussed: the influence of religion on the stability and developement of nations and on acts of individuals.
That was a rather cheap move to distract...

I was hoping we could have a civilized discussion without getting personal! So let me state again, to make that absolutely clear:
I respect all believes and religions.
I tolerate other peoples opinions.
I draw the line where these believes and opinions encroach upon my own freedom and safety.
Terror is terror - be it politically motivated or by religion, be it the US of A shooting civilians from a helicopter (you know the video, I am sure) or any lowlife with a bomb killing a busload of civilians. I despise both...