Thoughts on the future of Sharm

[boulderjohn]

There was an article in my local paper today about Coptic Christians begin very concerned about what will happen next, and it included a quote from an Islamist who said that their needs are not important because they are not in the majority. the article indicated taht some are beginning to see the handwriting on the wall and move out. The same thing happened in Iraq. Cruel dictator that he was, Saddam Hussein protected the rights of Iraqi Christians, and once he was gone, a large number fled the country.

 

[macrobubble]

As I have written before:
democracy and a society/government based on religious beliefs are mutually exclusive!
Democracy is all about tolerance, equality, freedom (to think diffently) and to ability to voice dissenting thoughts. All of that are absolute no-nos in a rigid religious framework. How can there be equality, if women are considered to have only half the value of men and how can there be freedom if copts are harrassed nd in large part excluded from society because of their believe. Most egyptian don´t have a clue what democracy and freedom really mean! They don´t understand the concept at all. Democracy and freedom for most is just words that mean nothing but "finally I can do as I want". The understanding that democracy means foremost to defend someones right to disagree with you is completely alien to most egyptians.
Someone once said (not looking it up, but rather from memory):
I might disagree with your opinion, but I would die trying to defend your right to voice it!

There is not one country governed by islamic ideals that has democratic structures! They are all more or less autocratic regimes, suppressing their people, killing opposing factions and they have no regard for basic human rights. "Democracy" is just a banner they wave to appease the people and the international community. With an islamic regime there will be even more dictatorship than there ever was under Mubarak. It will be the end of freedom in egypt - not a new beginning!

 

[boulderjohn]

As I have written before:
democracy and a society/government based on religious beliefs are mutually exclusive!
Democracy is all about tolerance, equality, freedom (to think diffently) and to ability to voice dissenting thoughts. All of that are absolute no-nos in a rigid religious framework. How can there be equality, if women are considered to have only half the value of men and how can there be freedom if copts are harrassed nd in large part excluded from society because of their believe. Most egyptian don´t have a clue what democracy and freedom really mean! They don´t understand the concept at all. Democracy and freedom for most is just words that mean nothing but "finally I can do as I want". The understanding that democracy means foremost to defend someones right to disagree with you is completely alien to most egyptians.
Someone once said (not looking it up, but rather from memory):
I might disagree with your opinion, but I would die trying to defend your right to voice it!

There is not one country governed by islamic ideals that has democratic structures! They are all more or less autocratic regimes, suppressing their people, killing opposing factions and they have no regard for basic human rights. "Democracy" is just a banner they wave to appease the people and the international community. With an islamic regime there will be even more dictatorship than there ever was under Mubarak. It will be the end of freedom in egypt - not a new beginning!

Democracy is a broad term that covers a lot of different systems of government that include votes by the people. What you describe is common in many democracies, but it is not a requirement of the term.

Even in countries that supposedly embrace universal rights in a constitution, many of the citizens do not understand that. Several years ago the state in the U.S. in which I live passed a law by referendum that was oppressive of homosexuals. The state supreme court ruled that the law was unconstitutional, and it was nullified. I know people who strongly supported the law who were outraged. They could not understand how a law passed by the majority of the people could be overthrown. These same people do not understand the first amendment of our national constitution. They point out that the majority of the country is Christian, and they don't understand why they can't put Christian displays on public property, require prayer in school, etc.

If our citizens, who all took classes on these concepts in school, don't understand that, it is not surprising that people who don't have experience with such principles don't, either.

 

[Tigerman]

As I have written before:
democracy and a society/government based on religious beliefs are mutually exclusive!
Democracy is all about tolerance, equality, freedom (to think diffently) and to ability to voice dissenting thoughts. All of that are absolute no-nos in a rigid religious framework. How can there be equality, if women are considered to have only half the value of men and how can there be freedom if copts are harrassed nd in large part excluded from society because of their believe. Most egyptian don´t have a clue what democracy and freedom really mean! They don´t understand the concept at all. Democracy and freedom for most is just words that mean nothing but "finally I can do as I want". The understanding that democracy means foremost to defend someones right to disagree with you is completely alien to most egyptians.
Someone once said (not looking it up, but rather from memory):
I might disagree with your opinion, but I would die trying to defend your right to voice it!

There is not one country governed by islamic ideals that has democratic structures! They are all more or less autocratic regimes, suppressing their people, killing opposing factions and they have no regard for basic human rights. "Democracy" is just a banner they wave to appease the people and the international community. With an islamic regime there will be even more dictatorship than there ever was under Mubarak. It will be the end of freedom in egypt - not a new beginning!

Its kinda revealing that you claim democracy and religious beliefs is mutually exclusive, to then go on about islamic ideals. Last time I checked christians where religious too and and most western countries have laws thats to some extent founded on those christian ideals..

 

[boulderjohn]

Its kinda revealing that you claim democracy and religious beliefs is mutually exclusive, to then go on about islamic ideals. Last time I checked christians where religious too and and most western countries have laws thats to some extent founded on those christian ideals..

When the U.S. constitution was created, it included freedom of religion precisely because of the experience of the previous several hundred years of democratic rule that included a requirement to adhere to the principles of whatever religion was then in power. When the Puritan revolution in England produced its version of democracy, the whole nation had to adopt Puritan practices. For example, they believed theater was evil, so all theater was banned. Prior to that, the Puritans only had control of local governments, including London's. Shakespeare had to locate his theater in what was called a "liberty," an area that was not technically a part of the city. Once they had control of the nation, theater was banned everywhere. Shakespeare's plays were not performed anywhere until the monarchy was restored. In America, the Puritans were given control of Massachussetts until their oppressive rule was just too much for people--things like hanging everyone accused of witchcraft got on people's nerves.

Even with that principle in the constitution, laws were made that violated that principle. Laws are still made that violate that principle, and they get away with it because they are the majority and it takes both courage and an act of the courts to overturn things. Even then, the courts have an interesting way of making decisions, often based more upon the personal convictions of the judges than the law. Here in Denver, a park that used to have a menorah displayed every year at Hanukkah was not allowed to do it this year because religious displays are not allowed on public property. The park has Christmas trees, though, because the courts decided that Christmas trees are not religious symbols, and neither is the elaborate Christmas display, including a manger scene, that covers the front of city hall.

The idea of religious tolerance is an evolving one in all democracies. America is not really there yet, although it is getting closer. In any nation in which the religious majority believes that their religion requires that the government itself must follow religious principles, that evolution will be especially slow.

 

[Tigerman]

...
In America, the Puritans were given control of Massachussetts until their oppressive rule was just too much for people--things like hanging everyone accused of witchcraft got on people's nerves.

Strange that...

...
Here in Denver, a park that used to have a menorah displayed every year at Hanukkah was not allowed to do it this year because religious displays are not allowed on public property. The park has Christmas trees, though, because the courts decided that Christmas trees are not religious symbols, and neither is the elaborate Christmas display, including a manger scene, that covers the front of city hall.

Umm.. What excuse did they make up for christmas trees and baby jesus in a crib isnt religious symbols? That christmas is an old haethen holiday? (which is technically correct, but for all intents and purposes not the meaning it has today)

Regardless, I dont see how its religious freedom NOT to be allowed to display any religious symbols - its the day you can show them anywhere you like you truely have religious freedom..

Id still call the US a democracy though, even though your laws mostly are in line with the bible.. (Not so much the eye for an eye part, your police seem to have a thing for vigilantes. Probably afraid of their jobs)

 

[boulderjohn]

Regardless, I dont see how its religious freedom NOT to be allowed to display any religious symbols - its the day you can show them anywhere you like you truely have religious freedom..

We as individuals have the right to make religious displays on our property. The issue here is displays on property owned by the public. Allowing displays on public property can be an indication that there is a government approved religion. If someone were to mount a display on public property that shows a variety of beliefs about religion, including atheism, to show that we are a land that is welcoming to all, there would be no problem. When you only have displays that depict one religion, then you are in effect establishing an official religion.

 

[macrobubble]

Yes, in western countries, some basic principles are founded in christian believes as in arabic countries they are founded in islamic believe. That´s not the problem. The measuring stick is the amount of tolerance that is given to dissenting voices, politically as well as religiously. I´m not saying that western democracies are perfect - far from it! There are deeply rooted anti-democratic sentiments in many layers of society. But overall there is a much broader understanding for the need of differencies in a healthy society. I am opposed to any influence of any religion in politics, where it may lead to exclusion and suppression! Christmas trees are not really a problem for a democracy - death sentences for unfaithful wifes or homosexuals are!

 

[boulderjohn]

I am opposed to any influence of any religion in politics, where it may lead to exclusion and suppression! Christmas trees are not really a problem for a democracy - death sentences for unfaithful wifes or homosexuals are!

Absolutely. But again it is evolution--not long ago both of what you describe were possible in western democracies.

 

[tridacna]

I dont see how its religious freedom NOT to be allowed to display any religious symbols - its the day you can show them anywhere you like you truely have religious freedom

"Anywhere you like"? That's a ridiculous statement. Can I display my religious symbols in YOUR home? In a public square subsidized by OUR public money? State sponsored religion has no place in a true democracy. Get over it.