Those health forms -- Truth or Consequences?

[RJP]

What about all those who have died who didn't lie on their medical form? n=1 in your example, and is not convincing to me.

None so blind, as those who refuse to see.

Don't be so ridiculous as to suggest that because some people that DON'T lie on their forms also die means it's ok to lie on the form.

To be clear - and you and I have done this dance before but for some reason I can't seem to make this point clear to you - I am not talking about people who have been honest on their form and cleared by an MD. I'm talking about the selfish, foolish idiots who know they have a problem and choose to lie on the form because they are too lazy, too ignorant, or too stupid to find out from a doctor whether or not they should be diving.

PS - my sample size in this regard is actually 3, including one who would quite certainly still be alive today had he not lied on his form. But you can tell his widow and kids that I'm being "unnecessarily emotive" and that it was fine for daddy to lie on the form. They will all take great solace I'm sure in the fact that others who did not lie on their forms also died. Almost makes it seem ok, ya know?

 

[lulubelle]

RJP, no one is suggesting that divers should not be medically cleared by their doctors to dive, of course they should.

That is not what is being debated here, what is being debated is whether or not divers should always disclose their medical information to the dive op taking them out.

For instance, should a young person who is taking acne medication disclose this on a dive ops' medical form? I can give you a million other examples of medical issues that are irrelevant to diving safety. That is why DAN provides a template dive physical, so that physicians focus on assessing issues which are known to affect diver safety. Those conditions which do not have this potential have no reason to land on the ops' medical form.

 

[RJP]

You missed my point entirely.

Nope. I think you're missing your own point.

The point I made is that if the known condition has "no potential to cause a problem", then I would not disclose it on a dive medical form which is all about liability.

The point you made originally, and then confirmed above, is that you think it's OK to lie on the form in situations where you feel like it or otherwise think that you know better.

This isn't that hard. The spot where you sign the form says that your signature indicates that you've answered honestly and to the best of your knowledge. If you're so in favor of everyone being cleared by their doctor, why are you so insistent about reserving the right to sign your name to a lie?

 

[RJP]

That is not what is being debated here, what is being debated is whether or not divers should always disclose their medical information to the dive op taking them out.

Lets be clear, the position that folks are trying to defend is "It's OK to lie on a medical form if I feel like it."

Is it OK to knowingly falsify information that you are certifying is true? Or is it just OK in those situations where you don't think the truth is relevant?

 

[lulubelle]

Nope. I think you're missing your own point.



The point you made originally, and then confirmed above, is that you think it's OK to lie on the form in situations where you feel like it or otherwise think that you know better.

This isn't that hard. The spot where you sign the form says that your signature indicates that you've answered honestly and to the best of your knowledge. If you're so in favor of everyone being cleared by their doctor, why are you so insistent about reserving the right to sign your name to a lie?

Yep.

Your reading comprehension needs a little work RJP. I never said that it was appropriate for a diver to decide whether or not a condition is relevant, my point was that it should be a physician, not a dive shop employee, who determines this. Disclosure of personal medical information that is not relevant to an untrained person is just silly. They would kick the person taking acne medication off of their charter.

I also made the point, which you are not getting, that any of the conditions which are considered at risk conditions on the dive physical should be disclosed on the dive ops medical form and have appropriate medical clearance. It is only fair to the op and the other divers.

Do you or the dive op really need to know if I take acne medication? Or if I have really bad dysmenhorrea? Or if I use a topical steroid for eczema? Or if I have an infected whatever and am taking antibiotics? Or if I have a hemorrhoid and use a prescription cream? Or if I have irritable bowel syndrome? Or any one of a million other irrelevant conditions which my doctor has cleared me to dive with? Nope.

 

[lulubelle]

Lets be clear, the position that folks are trying to defend is "It's OK to lie on a medical form if I feel like it."

Is it OK to knowingly falsify information that you are certifying is true? Or is it just OK in those situations where you don't think the truth is relevant?

I am being clear, and the position that I am trying to defend is that for conditions not considered at risk conditions on the dive physical, the only person who needs to know that information and clear me to dive is my doctor.

I agree with you that lay people should not make this determination, and that includes not only divers but dive shop employees.

 

[RJP]

I am being clear, and the position that I am trying to defend is that for conditions not considered at risk conditions on the dive physical, the only person who needs to know that information and clear me to dive is my doctor.

Please confirm:

It is OK to lie on the form? Y/N

 

[lulubelle]

Please confirm:

It is OK to lie on the form? Y/N

Dude, you are WAYYYY too much of a concrete thinker for me. Life is not black and white, it is GRAY. Go with it. You can worry yourself silly about whether or not your dive buddy has a hemorrhoid and has disclosed it on his medical form if you so wish. Knock yourself out.

Good night.

 

[RJP]

Good night.

Much easier to sleep I guess when you don't have answers to simple questions...

 

[Sas]

Much easier to sleep I guess when you don't have answers to simple questions...

I will answer clearly: I think it is fine to lie on a dive op's medical form if one already has clearance from their own diving doctor.