There are some misinformed people, including instructors, bashing PADI and the MSD

[DFC5343]

Whatever hayseed. I have read the words from both sides. I see where I am and feel that there is some good in rec diving and certifications. I like many would like to see some changes. I put up the USN quals because someone asked for some insight a few back.

 

[bwerb]

Can you do this?

Could I sign-up for several months of training in stuff which has little relevance to recreational diving but is very important in terms of the navy...nope...I'm over 30...don't make the cut. But...if you want to know if I can do the fitness requirements...sure...not a problem.

This list actually gives NO skills assesment criteria for open circuit scuba diving...do you have a list of skills you are supposed to be able to accomplish? You know like hold a stop for 5 minutes without using your hands and maintaining neutral bouyancy with no more than 24" of vertical movement while maintaining horizontal trim?

You post a great deal about your criteria for good divers and often relate it to military diving. So...what is your criteria for a good diver. In what ways do you find your military dive training applicable and adaptable to becoming a really good recreational diver?

 

[ssra30]

Alright, there are a couple of complains regarding this thread. I think that if you all want to discuss the merits of PADI training program, that's fine but please keep it in focus and objective.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Teach the class don't you need to be an NSS-CDS or NACD cavern instructor as well as a PADI instructor? I was under the impression they got cavern instructors to teach the class according to the NSS-CDS/NACD standards, then issued a PADI card for it.

No. To teach the PADI cavern class you need to be a certified as intro to cave from another agency and have 20 or 25 cave dives. PADI has their own outline which is esentially the same course as the NACD or NSS and no text.

Until this month what I let my PADI cert run out I was a caver instructor. I go signed off because I could. I am cave certified and have way more then the prerequisite number of cave dives. I never really taught the course. I usually refer thoses interested in cave diving to a cave instructor. I have done the land and open water line work and other skills with a few divers preparing to start cave training.

Notice the requirement I listed above. Other agencies like NSS-CDS, NACD and IANTD all require an instructor to assist with some caver/cave classes before they can become a cave or cavern instructor. PADI doesn't require that. If you're an instructor and a cave diver, you can teach their cavern class. Now, I'm not saying that I can't do a good job of teaching it. What I'm saying is that they don't have any idea whether I can or not.

Another thing that I noted above is their lack of a text. They don't have one and they don't require that the student read one. They rely totally on the instructor lecture from the outline. There's nothing wrong with the outline but when I went through cave training I had a bunch of hours of instructor lecture but I spent many hours with both the NACD and the NSS-CDS cave diving texts. A book, IMO, has a real advantage in that it lets you mull things over at your own pace and prepare to ask questions later.

Bottom line? Why take a PADI caver course? and if you do what will you get? I know at least one person who teaches this class who is an avid cave diver and teaches a good caver class but there isn't anything in the standards that insures that the instructor has any experience teaching in a cave and the caver IS is in the cave.

WOW, that was a ramble

 

[DFC5343]

Could I sign-up for several months of training in stuff which has little relevance to recreational diving but is very important in terms of the navy...nope...I'm over 30...don't make the cut. But...if you want to know if I can do the fitness requirements...sure...not a problem.

This list actually gives NO skills assesment criteria for open circuit scuba diving...do you have a list of skills you are supposed to be able to accomplish? You know like hold a stop for 5 minutes without using your hands and maintaining neutral bouyancy with no more than 24" of vertical movement while maintaining horizontal trim?

You post a great deal about your criteria for good divers and often relate it to military diving. So...what is your criteria for a good diver. In what ways do you find your military dive training applicable and adaptable to becoming a really good recreational diver?

Good questions. I am both NAUI and LA County certified. Rescue and advanced. I have been on both sides of the fence military and civilian. I think really as I have been saying is that whatever training you recieve make sure you learn something that helps your diving. Listening to GQ and Ferrera help me re think and analyze the rec diving process for myself . Its all most have. It is flawed but still is better than nothing. I have had very bad experiences with badly trained divers techniques and stupidity. I guess with the accident rating the Navy has had I tend to lean that way. Really its all about common sense and thinking before you do. If whatever you do doesn't seem worth it then let someone know. Otherwise dive safe.

 

[bwerb]

Good questions. I am both NAUI and LA County certified. Rescue and advanced. I have been on both sides of the fence military and civilian. I think really as I have been saying is that whatever training you recieve make sure you learn something that helps your diving. Listening to GQ and Ferrera help me re think and analyze the rec diving process for myself . Its all most have. It is flawed but still is better than nothing. I have had very bad experiences with badly trained divers techniques and stupidity. I guess with the accident rating the Navy has had I tend to lean that way. Really its all about common sense and thinking before you do. If whatever you do doesn't seem worth it then let someone know. Otherwise dive safe.

Good words.

 

[cornfed]

No.

I stand corrected.

 

[TCDiver1]

Think of it this way. Whatever YOU do to make you a better diver is all good. But if you flash it like a "I'm better cause look"...well then it is worthless. GUE,DIR,DIY...acronyms. They don't mean jack to me. NAUI,PADI...all the same and get air. They mean only what you get out of it all. Prove it in the water...and I'll maybe dive with ya.

Words to live by.

 

[matt_unique]

Whatever hayseed. I have read the words from both sides. I see where I am and feel that there is some good in rec diving and certifications. I like many would like to see some changes. I put up the USN quals because someone asked for some insight a few back.

I like this guy! Ha ha ha - say it like you mean it!!! Way to close this topic.

I think you're right on the money with your previous thread - when you're in the water all that matters is your skills. C cards are necessary to get the fills or to get to the next level of training or to get on the wreck charter boat. As soon as your gear is wet they don't matter much unless you got skills.

--Matt

 

[DivePartner1]

Hey boys and girls,

I have a MSD card. Boy was I hapy when I qualified for it. . . .
I would find out later that my education was in its infancy and I had plenty more to learn.. . .
If...I could do it over I could get way better way faster for way less money and effort (because I still had to teach myself so much of the important stuff).

You know what they say? If I only knew then what I know now...

Yup, but this is true of any certification isn't it? Why should diving be any different?

By analogy a kid out of law school can get 'certified' by passing the bar but has no skills to speak of regardless of where she went to school. For most, it takes a least 5 or so years of practice to be of much value. Even that's no assurance. Someone who spends that those years in the library of a large firm instead of the courtroom may be in for some surprises. The degree doesn't matter, it's what you do with it.

A good teacher is important, but at the end of the day its always more about what you do with what you learn and what you pick up along the way.

Let's all disenthral ourselves from this hubris over agencies and just get out and dive!