The straw that broke the divers back.

[Hetland]

I have confirmed that my heat rate will decreases on a nice dive to a moderate depth. I suppose a lot has to do with dive location and your comfort in the water. BTW: I am 25 lbs overweight and in typical shape for a middle aged geezer. Maybe I am a freak of nature, but I find the overall dive experience relaxing, not stressful.

In either case, this is anecdotal evidence that by itself of minimal value.

I have found that my heart rate and respiration rates will both drop during dives, even if I'm not taking photos.

The exceptions are worrying over another diver, spearfishing (at least after I've pulled the trigger), surf negotiation and shark attention. I find these activities affect my breathing and heart rate more than say, a brisk swim, even in heavy current. I also find that my breathing returns to normal faster when the "stressors" are physical in nature vs. psychological.

 

[Diver0001]

. Yes, I based that part of the argument on the book written by the MD that sites references,

Yes, he cites several sources for things he says but he does *not* cite a single source for the thing you're saying. It's one-hundred-percent opinion and he actually *refrains* from citing a source for that opinion even though he cites sources for many of the other things he says.....

Why would that be? Because there are good sources but he just didn't think about it, even though his article is full of such references?

Or because he can't find a source?

Also, your cynical supposition that I'm saying that the non-fit diver is better off is not valid. As I said before I would put my money on the diver with the most experience and skill. Only when you forced the issue and insisted on an answer on the assumption that "all other variables were equal" did I say that in that case I would take the fitter diver. Taht's a subjective opinion only and holds no weight in this discussion.

Those are the facts.

You're not really good enough at spin-doctoring to get yourself out of this.

R..

 

[idocsteve]

Yes, he cites several sources for things he says but he does *not* cite a single source for the thing you're saying. It's one-hundred-percent opinion and he actually *refrains* from citing a source for that opinion even though he cites sources for many of the other things he says....

Yes, when I said "you win" I was acknowledging that part of my argument is weak, and I based it entirely on that source which has been deemed to be insufficent on it's own. I thank the members who have corrected me in that regard, and I have nothing further to say about it.

Also, your cynical supposition that I'm saying that the non-fit diver is better off is not valid. Only when you forced the issue and insisted on an answer on the assumption that "all other variables were equal" did I say that in that case I would take the fitter diver. Taht's a subjective opinion only and holds no weight in this discussion.

What's cynical about it? Is it cynical to say that overweight people are more prone to diabetes and heart attacks?

By you saying that you would choose the fit diver with all other things being equal, you are supporting my argument that a fit diver will be in better shape in a crisis than a non fit diver.

That's how scientific tests are done...there's a "control" group and a "test" group, and all variables are adjusted so that the only thing being measured is the one aspect being studied.

Yes, yours is a subjective opinion only- but I do value it. Perhaps more than you do?

 

[Diver0001]

What's cynical about it? Is it cynical to say that overweight people are more prone to diabetes and heart attacks?

If there is evidence to support that the go ahead. I will be the last one to stop you....

But you're redirecting the discussion (another logical fallacy). On the point that you were trying to make you already stand in check-mate and for some reason that nobody else can understand, you're still moving your pieces.

Give it up. Your crusade about how fat people are automatically bad or unsuitable divers is over.

R..

 

[Whatgoesdown]

Why does this keep going through my head?
Don’t argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. - Greg King

 

[idocsteve]

If there is evidence to support that the go ahead. I will be the last one to stop you....

But you're redirecting the discussion (another logical fallacy). On the point that you were trying to make you already stand in check-mate and for some reason that nobody else can understand, you're still moving your pieces.

Give it up. Your crusade about how fat people are automatically bad or unsuitable divers is over.

R..

I NEVER said nor implied that fat people are automatically bad or unsuitable divers, I simply posted that obese, out of shape divers will be less likely to extricate themselves from a crisis situation and are at greater risk for heart attack while scuba diving and given the choice between two strangers, (dive experience and skill level unknown), one being an obese guy and the other a young slim attractive blonde, I'd choose the latter as a dive partner.

I made the unfortunate mistake of straying from my initial point, I admittedly went on a tangent which was the argument about lack of fitness being a risk factor for panic, based on a sketchy reference and I have conceded that one. Regarding my main point, links to references that support this, including a DAN report have been provided on this very thread.

I've already posted that I am about 225 lbs and 6 ' 1", and that puts me about 25 lbs overweight. If I was attesting what you say I am, then I am a walking..err..swimming contradiction.

 

[idocsteve]

Why does this keep going through my head?
Don’t argue with idiots.

Maybe you need to find something more productive to do?

 

[OldNSalty]

Ironic that this started as an assumption that the dead diver was unfit when we do not know anything at all. Now the debate is wrapped around miniscule points, almost like ‘I didn’t understand the meaning of the word “is” in your question.’
When you hit the water, you take a risk. If I plan/execute a dive to 100’ with a steel 72 I am taking a risk. A calculated one and I could reduce the risk by grabbing a bigger tank. Likewise, if I am out of shape, regardless if I am too fat or too thin, I am taking an elevated risk. You can argue how big of a risk and you could argue that based on experience and other factors, my size (of my gut or tank) is mitigated but I would still be better off if I were fitter and took the larger volume tank with me.
On an interesting side note, I heard about a study recently, and no, I don’t have the source, but it concluded that someone ‘slightly’ over-weight might be more apt to survive some illnesses because of the ‘extra weight’ then an under-weight or even average weight person.
Still, we all could use a little more exercise and a lot more dives.

 

[idocsteve]

Ironic that this started as an assumption that the dead diver was unfit when we do not know anything at all.

I read the Op again, and I am not seeing that assumption at all. The Op talks about all the things that a person can do to be a better, safer diver, and being fit was one of many things mentioned, in addition to improving and practicing skills as often as possible.

Still, we all could use a little more exercise and a lot more dives.

True.

 

[lulubelle]

On an interesting side note, I heard about a study recently, and no, I don’t have the source, but it concluded that someone ‘slightly’ over-weight might be more apt to survive some illnesses because of the ‘extra weight’ then an under-weight or even average weight person.
Still, we all could use a little more exercise and a lot more dives.

Here you go Oldnsalty,

JAMA -- Abstract: Cause-Specific Excess Deaths Associated With Underweight, Overweight, and Obesity, November 7, 2007, Flegal et al. 298 (17): 2028

These results are likely to be a simple matter of fuel supply when the body is in a state of extreme stress. Of note, the best survival was seen in the slightly overweight but not obese group.

I studied obesity and metabolism for some time and find these topics interesting. We know so little at this point.