The straw that broke the divers back.

[Diver0001]

True. I don't do well in the grey, never did. I've been told this by many.

I have protanopia and all I can deal in is grey.... LOL

For anyone interested. Idocsteve and I had an interesting exchange about this topic on this thread : http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/di...it-would-you-buy-gear-someone-died-using.html

Basically, what we established is that idocsteve's crusade against overweight people would appear to based on his repeated use of a logical fallacy known as "affirming the consequent" ... saying that if A -> B then B -> A.

His opinion that overweight people are inherently prone to panic does not follow from established scientific studies on the subject. Review the linked thread for more details.

R..

 

[CaboJim]

Here's something to think about. I bought the Galileo Sol about a month ago.
Yesterday, while diving Catalina Island, I used the polar heart monitor.
On the surface my heart rate was between 65 to 71. However, at 60 ft, the rate was between 105 & 110. I'm 6'3' & weight about 215lbs. I workout on a regular basis.
Maybe its just me, I really don't know, but that's a huge difference in cardio activity.

So, if you're a little overweight, out of shape, consider what your heart rate may be
at depth. I think that a lot of us don't truly understand or comprehend what stress, diving puts on our cardiovascular system.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Here's something to think about. I bought the Galileo Sol about a month ago.
Yesterday, while diving Catalina Island, I used the polar heart monitor.
On the surface my heart rate was between 65 to 71. However, at 60 ft, the rate was between 105 & 110. I'm 6'3' & weight about 215lbs. I workout on a regular basis.
Maybe its just me, I really don't know, but that's a huge difference in cardio activity.

So, if you're a little overweight, out of shape, consider what your heart rate may be
at depth. I think that a lot of us don't truly understand or comprehend what stress, diving puts on our cardiovascular system.

I have confirmed that my heat rate will decreases on a nice dive to a moderate depth. I suppose a lot has to do with dive location and your comfort in the water. BTW: I am 25 lbs overweight and in typical shape for a middle aged geezer. Maybe I am a freak of nature, but I find the overall dive experience relaxing, not stressful.

In either case, this is anecdotal evidence that by itself of minimal value.

 

[CaboJim]

I have confirmed that my heat rate will decreases on a nice dive to a moderate depth. I suppose a lot has to do with dive location and your comfort in the water. BTW: I am 25 lbs overweight and in typical shape for a middle aged geezer. Maybe I am a freak of nature, but I find the overall dive experience relaxing, not stressful.

In either case, this is anecdotal evidence that by itself of minimal value.

Just curious, how do you know that your heart rate decreases at moderate depth?
My point isn't about comfort level or relaxation, but the actual physical changes that depth places on our bodies, & in particular the cardiovascular system.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

It is not hard to manually checks ones pulses on you neck if you are not wearing a hood. You just need to count the pulse 30 seconds and double it. We could not get a good count on the wrist, possibly due to the west suit.

Anyway, to make a long story short as part of a home school class for my sons we checked our pulse rate doing a variety of activities centered around diving. At gear prep, immediately before descent, after decent, mid-dive, safety stop and after dive. My numbers started high and dropped fast after decent and mid-dive to my resting rate baseline (actually slightly below). My sons rate also decreased at mid dive, but never to their resting heart rate average. This made sense to use since at that time they had 50-60 dives and I had a lot more over 30 years. (lost count, another story)

 

[CaboJim]

Found this research interesting...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15241540?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I have protanopia and all I can deal in is grey.... LOL

For anyone interested. Idocsteve and I had an interesting exchange about this topic on this thread : http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/di...it-would-you-buy-gear-someone-died-using.html

Basically, what we established is that idocsteve's crusade against overweight people would appear to based on his repeated use of a logical fallacy known as "affirming the consequent" ... saying that if A -> B then B -> A.

His opinion that overweight people are inherently prone to panic does not follow from established scientific studies on the subject. Review the linked thread for more details.

R..

Seems to me he just took the same illogical conclusions to a different thread.

There ARE no "all other things being equal" ... we're all individuals, and while reasonable fitness does make for a better diver, it is far from the most important consideration to diver safety. In fact, I'd say it ranks fourth behind training, experience and attitude.

Propensity to panic is not intrinsically tied to physical fitness ... personality has more to do with it than physiology.

Panic is a coping mechanism, hard-wired into our brain to keep us alive in a "fight or flight" situation. What we will do when faced with those two choices will have a great deal more to do with our intrinsic wiring (i.e. "personality") than our physiology. Panic happens when a diver is faced with a situation over which they feel they have no control. It may be argued that a fit person is more likely to cope with a situation that can lead to panic, but it does not follow that their propensity to panic is any less or greater because of their fitness. What is far more important is recognizing your limitations, phychological as well as physical, and staying within them ... or exceeding them under controlled situations if the goal is to expand them. It is the diver who finds themselves in a situation they are not prepared to deal with who will be more likely to succumb to panic ... at whatever level of physical fitness they happen to be.

The diver who is least likely to panic is the one who makes good decisions, and who matches their diving goals to their diving qualifications. For some divers, those decisions will involve getting their body in better shape. For others, it will be placing limits on what types of dives they are prepared to do. The key thing is making an honest assessment about your skills, your psychology, and yes ... your fitness ... and to make your dive plans accordingly.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[idocsteve]

His opinion that overweight people are inherently prone to panic does not follow from established scientific studies on the subject. Review the linked thread for more details.

R..

We conclusively established that my argument was sound when you acknowledged that I was correct in regard to a fit diver being better able to handle a crisis than an out of shape diver.

Ok, you win. If all other things were equal I'll admit that I'd take the fit one. R..

 

[Diver0001]

We conclusively established that my argument was sound when you acknowledged that I was correct in regard to a fit diver being better able to handle a crisis than an out of shape diver.

Dude. Your opinion didn't hold up to scrutiny. You know that. There were no studies to support your point of view and several that refuted it.

You are now citing my own opinion about what I would do in a theoretical emergency if *all other variables were equal* and using that to support your opinion that unfit divers are at higher risk.

If you want support your opinion you're going to need to support it with evidence based on research. Citing the subjective opinion of one other *nobody* with no scientific backing to hold it up is like taking viagra and still not getting a result.

It's interesting... *telling* and highly aggravating that you omitted the posts between the ones you quoted. Quoting people out of context is *idiotic* and an admission of defeat.

R..

 

[idocsteve]

Dude. Your opinion didn't hold up to scrutiny. You know that. There were no studies to support your point of view and several that refuted it.

You are now citing my own opinion about what I would do in a theoretical emergency if *all other variables were equal* and using that to support your opinion that unfit divers are at higher risk.
R..

My core argument from the very beginning on this thread is that a fit diver will be better able to handle themselves in a crisis than a nonfit diver.

The second part of that argument, which only appears several pages later on this thread, is that an unfit diver is more prone to panic than a fit diver. Yes, I based that part of the argument on the book written by the MD that sites references, and I acknowledge that in of itself is not sufficient evidence to support that argument, so I will respectfully bow out of that part of it. "You win".

However, back to the primary argument of a fit diver being better able to handle themselves in a crisis than a non fit diver, assuming skills, experience and all other relevant factors being equal...the nonfit diver will come out ahead.

You have confirmed that much.