The straw that broke the divers back.

[idocsteve]

YES, YOU WILL DIE simply because "the ocean decides"

To think otherwise is beyond my comprehension. Really, I mean that.

Oceans do not decide anything. They do not have a brain, they are incapable of thinking. As are you, by your own admission.

Almost 10% of the deaths from 2006 (according to DAN) were solo divers.

So 90% of deaths were when diving with a buddy.

I'll stick with solo diving.

 

[HowardE]

Try reading the whole text. Take off the blinders. It's a shame you are on this one man crusade to make your point... whatever it is.

Unsubscribed.

 

[dmoore19]

Idoc,
Nevermind.............. you won't understand anyway.

 

[Hetland]

I'll stick with solo diving.

I would be surprised if you had a choice.

 

[idocsteve]

You completely missed the point of my post (#185) But you did however prove the point I was trying to make.

Um...glad to be of assistance.

I would be surprised if you had a choice.

There are always choices. Until you're dead.

 

[flatfoot40]

116 read the book "ON COMBAT" by Col. Dave Grossman. It explains alot about what you are trying to get across here. Most people get panic at about 175 bmp heart rate. This is the point where you are in condition "black" You lose most of the ability to access your frontal lobe in the brain. You access the inner middle "survival instinct-fight or flight" You also lose fine motor skills. You cannot locate your octo, you can't use your fingers. Fitness and training help to keep heart rate from elevating to condition black. SWAT operators and firefighers in a burning building know what I am talking about. I think you bring some very valid points to the discussion. And many of the DAN reports I read usually describe the person as overweight. Fitness is a HUGE factor. TRAINING and PLANNING can overcome some of these physical deficiancies, however once you hit the magic heart rate number its usually over with.

 

[idocsteve]

And many of the DAN reports I read usually describe the person as overweight. Fitness is a HUGE factor. TRAINING and PLANNING can overcome some of these physical deficiancies, however once you hit the magic heart rate number its usually over with.

Great post.

Where have you been?

 

[lulubelle]

Thank You. I lacked the patience to point this out when it was first brought up as "proof".

A buddy and I are thinking to head in your direction over the holidays and check out some sandtigers, and more importantly, the U-boat you guys sank up there. Any insider tips on planning our trip????

Hetland, PM me and I'll reply back with my email address. I'd be happy to give you a few tips. The main thing is to build in a little more time than you need. Many a dive day gets cancelled due to conditions. And do take some bonine as it is often a bumpy ride. And I personally would not recommend soloing here unless you have been diving here before.

No sharks on the sub, but the Spar and Caribsea are usually good bets.

The former does say that thyroid problems result in a higher risk of panic and some larger people do suffer from thyroid problems. That's about as close as I got to supporting the proposed hypothesis.

Thanks for the references, I'll have to read that one. My guess is that only hyperthyroidism would predispose someone to panic, and hyperthyroid folks are generally thin on initial presentation.

 

[Bonairetrip]

Situations have a way of becoming bigger than you. I think that was also what Hetland was saying. Here are several examples (all involving fairly or very fit people) -- all had good outcomes. (My first was in my open water class when my buddy froze up).

I was body surfing off the Washington coast when I was probably about 17. I was in water not that much over waist deep when the rip started -- it simply drug me out. My younger brother was a bit closer to shore and I yelled for him to go in now. He did. I rode the rip out as I swam out of (not against) the rip. I then had about a 1/4 mile swim back. I didn't panic (I was mostly thinking that a 1/4 mile swim in a 1/4 inch farmer john with beaver tail and no rocket fins was going to suck badly). I was comfortable in the water. No matter your fitness level (mine was probably fair), you were getting sucked out. If you fight those rips, you almost always die (regardless of fitness).

Not sure if I could avoided the rip before or not. I can tell you this: I spend much more time reading the water before I go in than I ever did at age 18.

I met someone on Bonaire who had just completed a very, umm, exciting dive. Their group surfaced offshore closer to sunset. That was their plan rather than swim in underwater. No current to speak of. They then swam due west. (One guy thought the clouds were "the mountains of Bonaire" and had them swimming towards the sunset). Somebody eventually figured it out. Now they had a long swim back. One person then froze and refused to do anything. They had to tow her back. She seemed to have a very good level of fitness but simply freaked.

Yes, fitness came in handy towing back one of the people. But, in that case, a bit more judgement would have meant no incident at all. If they had kept going, no level of fitness would have saved them. I have towed back very fit divers who would not do anything to help (beyond breathe out of their reg and lay rigid) until their butt was literally dragging on the gravel or sand of the beach.

My points:
a) Fitness is a good thing. There are things more important but it is a good thing. Slim does not always equal fit. Larger does not always mean unfit (as the OP, I think, agreed).
b) I think the OP was a bit harsh (and he later explained) in tone and what got lost was his other points about becoming better divers. On balance, a good post. (I got the Full Metal Jacket quote, otherwise I might have reacted differently).
c) I think Steve scares me. In the same way that a teen driver is sure they won't get in an accident because their reactions and vision are so much better than that of their parents. And they have been driving for a whole six months now and they got a bunch of driver ed training and... But they have yet to hit black ice or drive too fast during a heavy rain or...

Steve:
I know that a few posters have hurled insults or used names. I agree that is bad form. That said, probably a half dozen posters have tried to explain their views and they just seem to bounce off of you.

For example, I wish there was a great study on fitness and panic. Interesting topic. My personal theory is that panic is more often driven by a lack of intrinsic comfort in the water that a solid grounding in water safety skills helps provide. Too bad I don't know of a study on that either. You seem to be hanging on to a chapter from an old book and ignoring the merits of posts from people who have more dives than you and I combined will probably ever make -- and what they have seen first hand.

Another example is your comment about buddy diving and saving someone else. You make it sound like the issue is so clear cut -- there is always risk and reward in helping another. Judging and managing that risk (including when to back off) is the important skill in rescues. Or how you insist that nobody over weight can have a decent level of fitness. Or how you talk about fat people versus the rest of us.

Said another way, the world is a million shades of gray and you seem to inhabit a very black and white world.

 

[idocsteve]

You seem to be hanging on to a chapter from an old book and ignoring the merits of posts from people who have more dives than you and I combined will probably ever make -- and what they have seen first hand.

Well yeah...my original point was that a fit diver will be more able to get themselves out of a crisis situation than a nonfit diver, all things being equal. The part about being more fit making a person less prone to diving wasn't part of my argument until I read that post with a book reference that seemed convincing enough. Ok, it's only one source and in of itself it proves nothing. Yeah it's an "old book" but so what? The bible is even older and a lot of people believe the nonsense that's spread over the pages of that book.

Another example is your comment about buddy diving and saving someone else. You make it sound like the issue is so clear cut -- there is always risk and reward in helping another. Judging and managing that risk (including when to back off) is the important skill in rescues.

Yes I realize that there is always risk and reward in rescues. What I said was that if I was in a situation where I have already determined that trying to save a person would be significant risk to my own life I wouldn't do it. I did not mean to imply that if I saw a diver in need of assistance I would swim in the opposite direction as fast as possible.

Or how you insist that nobody over weight can have a decent level of fitness. Or how you talk about fat people versus the rest of us.

I'm about 30 lbs overweight myself. I'm 6' 1", and about 225 lbs and should be closer to 200. I'm trying to motivate myself to get back on that treadmill especially considering I've got a big dive trip coming up after the first of the year.

Said another way, the world is a million shades of gray and you seem to inhabit a very black and white world.

True. I don't do well in the grey, never did. I've been told this by many.

You're a perceptive and intelligent fellow and your points are well taken (for the most part..lol)