The straw that broke the divers back.

[idocsteve]

I don't know how to break the news to you, but 200 dives isn't going to impress Bob (or most of the other people here).

A couple of hundred dives is just getting into "probably won't die, and could be a good buddy if you worked at it" territory.

Terry

Terry, I posted my dive experience as well as a link to my online dive log (which clearly shows the bulk of my recent diving has been on shipwrecks in the North Atlantic) and my various certifications- because Bob stated that I am a "liar" and I am a "vacation diver" with only a small handful of dives under my belt.

I'm not looking to impress anyone.

 

[idocsteve]

I'll keep that in mind.
Just for the record, if you ever do anything terminally stupid, that is, get yourself into a potentially fatal situation where you should never have been in the first place, in the water or elsewhere, and I have a chance to save you, I will, if I possibly can.
Even if you're diving solo.
Even at "significant" risk to myself.
But that's just me...
Rick

Thanks Rick.

If you're ever in trouble diving, and I'm the only one in a position to help you, I'd do the best I can, until such time it becomes apparent that I am risking my own life. With the exception of loved ones (and that's a very short list), no one's life is worth more than my own.

Which is why -with the rare exception when I dive with friends or family members- I have chosen to dive solo. I accept responsibility for no one else's life and I expect no more from anyone else.

 

[lulubelle]

You mean, prior to reading this thread. :cool2:

"Hyperventilation and panic stress reactions are more likely to occur in the physically unfit. "

From "Medical Fitness for Diving" by Lawrence Martin, M.D. Copyright 1997. Numerous studies are cited at the bottom of the page.

Link HERE

You're wrong on 3 counts

1-It's a book, not an "opinion paper" (whatever that is, I'm not familiar with that term).

2-To say that it reflects only the opinion of the MD who wrote it, is at the very least a bit of a stretch. That's like saying every nonfiction instructional book, possibly even including the PADI OW manual is "the opinion of the person who wrote it".

3-Out of 25 references cited, only 10 deal with diabetes, asthma, and epilepsy. That's not most, it's not even half.

idoc, I don't know if you are wrong or not, because you have not offered up any valid proof sources for your assumptions. Yet you readily call me and anyone else on this board "wrong" and you have offered no proof sources whatsoever. You offered only one author's opinion from a 15 year old book.

You submitted a link to this chapter, the following quote from the author "Hyperventilation and panic stress reactions are more likely to occur in the physically unfit", and the associated references which were included at the end of the chapter as your "proof" that the author's opinion is correct. The only problem with your "proof" is that it isn't proof at all. Not a single one of the citations listed actually studied panic in divers and it's relationship to fitness levels. Show me a well done study that actually looks at panic/anxiety and the correlation to fitness levels and I'd be most happy to look at it seriously. I'm not impressed with a 15 year old reference which cites no studies which back up your assumptions.

Happy solo diving.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

By citing your own experience and "popularity" you beg the question by dealing with the person behind the argument and not the facts themselves.

But that's not what I said at all ... I simply cited a history, with no value judgments whatsoever. I'll leave those to the individual readers of our respective comments.

I'm not concerned about popularity. Credibility is the issue. Every reader of this board gets to decide, based on content, who they consider credible.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[dmoore19]

There is another "root cause" that isn't listed in any studies. Arrogance. Arrogance kills! One of my observations in my limited experience is a humble diver is a safe diver. Regardless of the number of dives or the training completed a dose of humble will make for a safer diver. No, there is no studies or papers that will prove my statement. There is a large difference between confidence and arrogance. With arrogance you are so confident you fail to see your mistakes. Those mistakes in an underwater environment will kill you no matter how many situps, pullups and pushups you do. There is a fine line between being selfassured and overly so. The ocean doesn't care how many times you have been there or how many classes you have taken. When the ocean decides to take you it will and there are so many ways that it can be done.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

There is another "root cause" that isn't listed in any studies. Arrogance. Arrogance kills! One of my observations in my limited experience is a humble diver is a safe diver. Regardless of the number of dives or the training completed a dose of humble will make for a safer diver. No, there is no studies or papers that will prove my statement. There is a large difference between confidence and arrogance. With arrogance you are so confident you fail to see your mistakes. Those mistakes in an underwater environment will kill you no matter how many situps, pullups and pushups you do. There is a fine line between being selfassured and overly so. The ocean doesn't care how many times you have been there or how many classes you have taken. When the ocean decides to take you it will and there are so many ways that it can be done.

So true.

There's a saying "you don't know what you don't know".

There's a reason why so many people at 2,000 dives feel like they know less than they felt like they knew at 200 dives ... it's because they've had a chance to experience some of the ways that the ocean can kill you, and have survived to learn from the experiences. And in so doing they are beginning to comprehend the vast amount of knowledge that you don't ... can't ... get in a class or by reading about scuba diving. It's one thing to hear something ... it's another thing entirely to experience it. Diving is so situational that a solution that works on one dive for a given circumstance might be completely wrong for a different dive under a very similar circumstance.

Diving safety is all about judgment ... using your experiences and knowledge to make good decisions.

The minute anyone starts to think they've got it all figured out, they are setting themselves up for trouble.

Over the years we've lost some extremely competent and experienced divers who were active members of ScubaBoard because they became overconfident, and broke rules they knew they shouldn't break ... and the ocean or the cave claimed them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[irishsquid]

...And in fact, panic is a phychological condition, not a physical one... and you simply cannot tell who's got the propensity by looking at them.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You are so right! Little story from a couple years back at work, not dive related, but; relevant to panic and not knowing who will...
We had an employee; male, 6'5"-245lbs. 24yrs. old, weight lifter, football, basketball, jogger, etc. (Basic jock) Anyway, we're sitting in the shop when a "grand-daddy long leg" spider crawls on his leg. He goes over backwards out of his chair, pushing backwards into the wall on his a$$, whimpering like a puppy. Talk about panic! Luckily, our secretary; female, 5'3" 220lbs, 40yrs. old was there to pick the spider off of him and calm him down. This is not to stereotype anyone, sex, age etc. It just illustrates that panic can happen to anyone and you can't tell who that anyone will be by physical stature or fitness. Panic is usually brought on by fear of the unknown which is usually due to lack of knowledge/training. Panic is a mental condition with some physical reaction/manifestations. The wrong reactions cause the resulting bad outcomes. It is rare that someone dies from fright due to poor physical conditioning.

 

[Hetland]

This is an opinion paper, not a study. It represents the opinion of the physician writing it. None of the cited sources indicate that they have actually studied the frequency of panic in the physically unfit diving population versus the physically fit diving population. Most of the papers cited are papers specific to diabetes, asthma, epilepsy, etc.

I'd be interested in seeing if there is any actual study data showing that anxiety as an independent entity can be correlated with any particular body type or meaningful measure of fitness (strength, stress test, etc.)

Thank You. I lacked the patience to point this out when it was first brought up as "proof".

A buddy and I are thinking to head in your direction over the holidays and check out some sandtigers, and more importantly, the U-boat you guys sank up there. Any insider tips on planning our trip????

 

[irishsquid]

...Any insider tips on planning our trip????

Sit ups!

 

[Hetland]

Sit ups!

LOL, too funny! I'll have to lay off all that good VortoberFest food for a while too!