The straw that broke the divers back.

[lulubelle]

NC is one of those places I really want to dive ... so perhaps, someday.

I hooked up with one of your fellow NC divers ... BabyDuck ... in cave country last week. If she's any indication, y'all develop some good skills diving in those conditions. Difficult local conditions tend to turn out competent divers, because only those motivated to becoming competent will put in the effort to stick with it.

The courses you mention sound like a good progression ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I don't know her well, but I have met her and it is clear that she is a very accomplished diver. Nice gal too. I haven't caught the cave bug yet. I have been designing my continuing education on a need to know basis thus far (I need to do Rescue and have more gas flexibility for my deep dives), rather than trying to tick off everything in rapid progression to get my diving PhD.

I think you are right about difficult local conditions developing competent divers quickly. My first dive out of OW was on the Papoose (130 feet, please don't flame me) with a very experienced buddy and the right preparation. It went great and these deep dives here represent a little more than half of the ones I have done. I have seen divers with FAR more experience and training than me have a hard time here. Generally because the were a bit too overconfident about their skills in an environment which was essentially a new one for them.

OK, I'm out of here folks...enjoy the rest of your discussion

 

[idocsteve]

Well, gee ... while you were in here sitting on your arse judging my fitness to dive, I was out there last night diving.

While you were out playing last night, I was at the Long Island Divers Association Film Festival, increasing my knowledge of the sport and via the cost of my attendance ticket and raffle ticket purchases I was supporting the maintenance of our environment, and protecting diving sites in the Northeast for divers.

Now that I'm on a computer that'll let me see your chart I'd just like to comment that posting it to "prove" your point only proves that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Most divers who drown do so because they ran out of air ... what caused them to run out of air? Most who embolise do so because they panicked and bolted for the surface ... what caused them to panic?

Yes Bob, they panicked. Unfit divers are more prone to panic than fit divers, that much is generally agreed and links to an authoritive reference that states just that have been provided on this thread.

Yeah, uh huh ... like I said earlier, a young man trying to somehow prove his manhood.

Enjoying the company of an attractive woman has nothing to do with proving manhood. And thanks but I'm not "young" by most standards, I'm in my late 40s.

What if that little cutie forgets to check her air and you have to donate your reg? What if she then panics and bolts to the surface dragging your sorry butt along for the ride? What will you do? Are you in any way prepared to deal with it?

Give that unfit divers are more prone to panic, without knowing the experience and personality characteristics of the two divers in the picture, the more fit of the two would be the most reasonable choice, plus if she did panic she'd be easier to deal with on a physical level than the big dude who could more easily overpower me.

If you're going to come onto a worldwide forum and express strong opinions, at least take the time to learn something about the subject first. Otherwise, you just come across as an idiot with strong (and usually wrong) opinions.

Yeah but there's a bigger idiot on this forum, and that's you, Bob. Considering the amount of dive experience you profess to have, you've got no excuse for the continued name calling and your propensity to maintain your incorrect opinion in the face of strong evidence to the contrary.

Panic is a huge contributor to diver fatalities, regardless of the "root cause", and poor fitness increases the likelihood of panic.

End of story

 

[Rick Murchison]

Ah, the tyranny of the thin...
Irritating and aggravating, especially those assinine weight/height charts, which ignore the density of a body. When in the Navy I was always right at the limit, even though I sank like a rock with a full breath, and could max the swim tests and leg press over 700 pounds. (ah, those were the days... now i can float ) To meet those standards in the middle I'd have to take on full time anorexia!
Thin folks think it just isn't fair that some fatty can outswim, outrun, outclimb, outshoot, outdive, outthink, outhike, or especially outlive 'em. After all, all fat's bad, and fat folk should suffer!
Sumo wrestlers
Football players
Weight lifters
all bug the thin 'fat police.'
Last study on general longevity I saw concluded the best combination was "slightly overweight, married, one drink a day."
And, if some of the pundits are right about the looming global economic collapse, the wisdom of a very old saying about bad times may be worth contemplating:
"In war, the fat get skinny; the skinny just die."
Rick

 

[Bonairetrip]

<SNIP> Since I am an accomplished NE Wreck diver with close to 200 dives under my belt and have completed several training courses from SSI Advanced to SDI solo diver, it's a reasonable conclusion that you don't know what you're talking about. <SNIP>

Steve:

No name calling from me but a few things for you, perhaps, to consider. First, it really does sound like you are a very confident diver.

It also sounds like you don't know what you don't know. Fitness is a good thing. But diving is about a whole lot more than some level of fitness. It is also about thinking, judgement, decision making and poise.

When you say something that sounds like it is from a resume cover letter ("I am an accomplished NE Wreck diver with close to 200 dives under my belt and have completed several training courses..." ), I wonder if you are aware of just how little training/experience you really have?

I am not a pilot but I find that field has some things in common with diving. One thing you learn as a pilot is that there are several danger zones as you get more hours. See The 10 Dumbest Things Pilots Do - Plane & Pilot Magazine | PlaneAndPilotMag.com

While I have no studies to support this, most diving incidents I have seen (no fatalties yet, thankfully) have been more about decison making than about fitness. Hubris often being a factor in the decision making. Would more fitness have helped? Sure. Would better decision making have helped more? Yep.

I don't know TS&M nor Grateful diver but they are both divers that I would not hesitate to dive with. Why? They have depth of experience, seem to have sound judgement and, perhaps most of all, an awareness of what they do and don't know.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

While you were out playing last night, I was at the Long Island Divers Association Film Festival, increasing my knowledge of the sport and via the cost of my attendance ticket and raffle ticket purchases I was supporting the maintenance of our environment, and protecting diving sites in the Northeast for divers.

Congratulations ... I'm sure watching a movie improved your diving skills immensely.

Yes Bob, they panicked. Unfit divers are more prone to panic than fit divers, that much is generally agreed and links to an authoritive reference that states just that have been provided on this thread.

If you're talking about the pie chart you linked, then you are misinterpreting what it is telling you.

Enjoying the company of an attractive woman has nothing to do with proving manhood. And thanks but I'm not "young" by most standards, I'm in my late 40s.

Then you should know better.

Give that unfit divers are more prone to panic, without knowing the experience and personality characteristics of the two divers in the picture, the more fit of the two would be the most reasonable choice, plus if she did panic she'd be easier to deal with on a physical level than the big dude who could more easily overpower me.

Which of those two do you think would have an easier time hauling your unconscious butt out of the water if needed?

Yeah but there's a bigger idiot on this forum, and that's you, Bob. Considering the amount of dive experience you profess to have, you've got no excuse for the continued name calling and your propensity to maintain your incorrect opinion in the face of strong evidence to the contrary.

I was simply responding to your rude language ... and you're the one who decided to start the name-calling with your couch potato comment. Dude, you're a classic bully ... first you try to slap someone, then when you get your arse kicked you cry "unfair". Boo hoo.

Panic is a huge contributor to diver fatalities, regardless of the "root cause", and poor fitness increases the likelihood of panic.

You have yet to show any evidence of that. And in fact, panic is a phychological condition, not a physical one. I've dealt with panicked divers before ... and you simply cannot tell who's got the propensity by looking at them.

End of story

Somehow I doubt it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[idocsteve]

When you say something that sounds like it is from a resume cover letter ("I am an accomplished NE Wreck diver with close to 200 dives under my belt and have completed several training courses..." ), I wonder if you are aware of just how little training/experience you really have?

I wrote that <and provided links to my online log book> because I was being called (among other things) a "liar" , a "vacation diver", and an "idiot" by someone who calls themselves a "diving instructor".

I am well aware that on this board I am in good company of many divers with much more experience than my own, and I respect their achievements, their skills, and their dedication to diving. I know I've got a lot more to learn about this sport and I do so on every single dive.

 

[idocsteve]

Which of those two do you think would have an easier time hauling your unconscious butt out of the water if needed?

As a solo diver I accept full responsibility for myself, and I would prefer to dive alone than with a dive buddy I know nothing about. The odds of me being dependent on them is much less then a panicked diver being a huge liability for me. Call me cold, or cruel, or "an idiot" (your preferred choice of words), but I'm not interested in risking my own life to save a stranger who should probably never have been in the water in the first place.

I've dealt with panicked divers before ... and you simply cannot tell who's got the propensity by looking at them.

Bob,

Sometimes you can tell if a diver has a propensity for panic. Since you're a diving instructor I would have expected you to know that. A diver who is nervous and prone to anxiety and panic will exhibit many signs- fidgeting, slowness in donning their rig, hesitation to get in the water, glazed look in their eyes, not paying attention to dive briefings..the list is almost endless. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to educate you on this.

And again the point I was making was that if you CANNOT tell who is more likely to panic then you're best bet would be the one who is the more fit of the two, because once again, more fit divers are less prone to panic than the unfit.

Somehow I doubt it ...

Well, yeah, as long as you keep posting things that merit a response from me, it's not the End of Story.

 

[Whatgoesdown]

I, like many here, have been watching this thread with morbid interest and I've been a bit reluctant to wade in but I'd like to just throw a few thoughts into the mix.

If I knew now what I thought I knew at 200 dives I'd be a far better diver than I am.

I have never, in all I have learned regarding diving, come across a study that says fat people panic more than others. In my experience, people who panic are those who are more likely to get outside their comfort zone. They are quite often (but not always) the young, fit, macho guys or, more frequently, the wives/girlfriends who have been dragged along by macho guys that wouldn't listen to them. Don't get me wrong, there are obese macho guys too and they get into trouble the same as anyone else.

Having rescued all sorts of body shapes, I can confirm that larger divers are easier to get buoyant than skinny divers. Don't know if it's relevant but once they are afloat the panic tends to subside.

The root cause of most diving accidents is diver error, the subsequent drowning, cardiac arrest etc. could often have been prevented by properly planning the dive, checking/servicing gear etc.

fwiw I'm 6'3" and 160lbs or so. I hate running but can swim all day.

 

[idocsteve]

I have never, in all I have learned regarding diving, come across a study that says fat people panic more than others.

You mean, prior to reading this thread. :cool2:

"Hyperventilation and panic stress reactions are more likely to occur in the physically unfit. "

From "Medical Fitness for Diving" by Lawrence Martin, M.D. Copyright 1997. Numerous studies are cited at the bottom of the page.

Link HERE

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

......Call me cold, or cruel, or "an idiot" (your preferred choice of words), but I'm not interested in risking my own life to save a stranger who should probably never have been in the water in the first place.

Did you read what you post? I am a crusty, grumpy, narrow minded, old fart, yet to think like this, much less express publicly it blows me away. Yeah, please DO dive solo.