The State of Diving

[Thalassamania]

... or maybe that's how the instructors were taught, and how they were taught to teach ... and so they believe that's how it should be done.

Quite likely ... were it not for a few mentors showing me alternatives ... that's how I'd be teaching ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

It is hard to break a long chain of incompetence that reaches back several generations, thorugh the instructors, to their trainers to their trainers' trainers, they reinforce incompetence to the point that now they've made it the industry norm, and then when faced with that fact they add on additional small modules like AOL, PPD and rescue to attempt to compensate for their initial error(s).

Good point, but I'm talking about folks who argue against teaching to a higher level, not those who are unaware of the possibilities.

In my experience the people who argue against teaching at a higher level fall into one of several categories: those who can't perform at a higher level themselves; those who'd slice the O/W course up into many, many separately priced products, I expect some day to see a program where each pool and ocean session has a separate card and certificate suitable for framing, and pricetag; those with distain for their students, who think that their students are too stupid or clumsy to perform at a higher level.

Walter, you seem all over the place... you on a rant today?

"the problem with giving them the skills to not be awkward or unstable is the outlook that vacation divers don't need that level"

What do others' opinions or "outlooks" have to do with the manner in which you teach your class? Focus on yourself, your weaknesses, and how you can learn from others mistakes and you'll see the world from a healthier perspective.

You seem to be suggesting --sorry if I misunderstood-- that you're shaping your course around low industry standards that you disagree with... but yet you're conforming while also routinely griping about it on scubaboard?

I think you misunderstand Walter.

"Good point, but I'm talking about folks who argue against teaching to a higher level."

Nobody is arguing against the instructors teaching to higher standards, though some are questioning whether longer classes and exorbitant tuition is the best solution. I might agree to some higher OW standards, in principle, but its fantasy-land (and agency anti-trust violations) to expect major changes to the introductory scuba course.

Lots of people are arguing against it, even you appear to be arguing against it.

And my personal favorite: "I had to put in hundreds of dives to develop my skills, why should new divers get a short cut? I had to pay my dues, they should pay theirs."

So your justification for raising standards, as it sounds to me, is because it took you X long to master, X long it must be for everyone?

That's a new one to me.

For certain, because otherwise your YMCA four-month course wasn't really as effective as you suggest or its just you. Eek! I have a couple relatives from YMCA certifications and I've never seen more poorly educated divers sadly ignorant of almost every contemporary diving principle, so when I hear old-skoolers bragging about the good ole days I sort of have to laugh.

Just because your realatives may have had a YMCA instructor who just met minimum Y standards does not mean that other Y programs were no vastly superior, you guys keep forgetting that the "top" on such programs is not restricted, just the bottom.

Different debate. And although I've seen many divers I personally wouldn't have let go in the water without a DM (or mentor) had I been responsible for them, accident statistics hint that I'm wrong.

Fatalities, or even injuries, are a very poor measure. It's pretty hard to hurt yourself at a "bunny slope" dive site, though not impossible. But it is pretty easy to be uncomfortable and frightened ... hence the sky-high drop out rate, a much better measure.

The skills of the diver, of course, will depend on the instruction.

Yes, but also the diver's preparation for the course and motivation.

But all certifications are equivalent in the sense that most dive operators will accept c-cards from any agency. For the purpose of booking a trip on a boat, it doesn't matter if you got your certification in a box of cereals or if you took an incredibly long, thorough and exacting course - as long as you have an official looking piece of plastic with your name on it.

The point that the video so perfectly demonstrates is that despite the fact that any c-card will get you on the boat, all certifications are not equivalent.

 

[lavachickie]

It must be nice to be an experienced diver, perfect in all respects, so as one can criticize and belittle those divers who are just coming on line or only have a few dives under their belt. It must be a really big ego boost for those who are inclined to do so. And: "C-cards are given to people with the bare minimum dive skills"? I guess so, since they are newbies who have only had two days of open water. Get a life.

I don't see this thread as critical of the divers themselves, but looking deeper and implicating that their training was sub-par. Some would say those entrusted to train them failed them, for they gave them a C-card without properly preparing them with skills that give them a solid foundation to enter the water prepared to take their solid, if basic, skillset and build on that to become a good diver.

[Edit -- good points, though, that once a year resort divers may have been much better after a course, and simply lose that and don't dive enough to maintain it.]

I can assure you -- as a relatively new diver myself -- the people thrashing around so much are NOT comfortable in the water. They are not enjoying themselves as much as they could be if they had been better prepared and actually learned and achieved more comfort and stability in the water.

I don't know what the true intent of the basic courses are really meant to be; I'm not an instructor. But I would think someone should have, in the water and out, talked to the dog paddler and explained what they were doing, what they should be doing, and how to get from point A to point B. A DM in my class did that for me -- and I thank him for it. He stopped me, communicated with me, illustrated what I was doing wrong, put my body into position and guided me through the motions (hands on my legs) to "show" me what the most effective and efficient kick style was. He gave me kudos when I got it right, he checked up on me afterward, and he discussed it with me again once we exited the water. I never forgot that!

 

[Walter]

Walter, you seem all over the place... you on a rant today?

Nope. I'm not on a rant.

What do others' opinions or "outlooks" have to do with the manner in which you teach your class?

Absolutely nothing.

You seem to be suggesting --sorry if I misunderstood-- that you're shaping your course around low industry standards that you disagree with... but yet you're conforming while also routinely griping about it on scubaboard?

You misunderstood. First, my classes are not typical for the industry, although I suspect they are fairly typical for SEI. I do not shape my classes around low industry standards. My standards and the standards of my agency are much higher. I try to let people know they have options and do not have to conform to low standards. I certainly do not follow low standards.

Secondly, I do not routinely gripe about low standards on ScubaBoard. I do respond to posts about low standards from time to time.

Nobody is arguing against the instructors teaching to higher standards,

You're new, so I don't expect you to be familiar with the many discussions on this topic, but folks argue against it quite often.

I might agree to some higher OW standards, in principle, but its fantasy-land (and agency anti-trust violations) to expect major changes to the introductory scuba course.

There is nothing in the concept that has anything to do with anti-trust violations, but ignoring that topic, I do not expect most agencies to raise standards or for most instructors to teach above their agency's standards. I do want to make consumers aware that there are differences in classes and I do want to make instructors aware that they don't have to teach crappy classes.

So your justification for raising standards, as it sounds to me, is because it took you X long to master, X long it must be for everyone?

Nope. My point is it doesn't have to take years and hundreds of dives for divers to be competent. They can be competent from the beginning.

 

[ptyx]

Fatalities, or even injuries, are a very poor measure. It's pretty hard to hurt yourself at a "bunny slope" dive site, though not impossible. But it is pretty easy to be uncomfortable and frightened ... hence the sky-high drop out rate, a much better measure.

Using drop out rate will favor longer training, because only committed people will be prepared to go through the time and money investment those trainings require. You are excluding those who could end up being really good divers, but are not sure they'll like it.

Uncomfortable and frightened is another matter - but hiding divers in a pool until they're completely comfortable doesn't necessarily get them there faster than spending the same time in the ocean.

In my experience the people who argue against teaching at a higher level fall into one of several categories: those who can't perform at a higher level themselves; those who'd slice the O/W course up into many, many separately priced products

You might include me in the later, but not for economic reasons.

I think there is a good case for training fully autonomous divers, capable of taking responsibility for both selection, planning and execution of a dive. I think that's the kind of diver you (and many other on this board) want to train.

I also think there is a good case (or at least a market) for low commitment guided dives in a small group, good controlled conditions, and where the gear, site selection, planning and profile are left to a professional. This is the way most vacation dives are executed.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Amen Brother!
This is exactly what was emphasized in the YScuba program.
People don't want that, it seems. Everyone want a McCertification.
Then they cry foul when it's pointed out how many ****ty
McDivers there are out there.

-Mitch

 

[Thalassamania]

Using drop out rate will favor longer training, because only committed people will be prepared to go through the time and money investment those trainings require. You are excluding those who could end up being really good divers, but are not sure they'll like it.

I'm not suggesting the elimination of "Try Diving" or small step programs, I think that they are great for introducing folks. I would, however, like to see the bar for "certification" significantly raised. I'd prefer a system of standardized written exams and well calibrated independent water skill examiners for certification; with no "course" standards what-so-ever. That way the quality of the course and the instructor is judged on the pass rate, nothing else.

Uncomfortable and frightened is another matter - but hiding divers in a pool until they're completely comfortable doesn't necessarily get them there faster than spending the same time in the ocean.

I don't remember anyone advocating just pool time. Besides, at least for my students, pool time is done in full identical gear to ocean time, so operationally there's not a whole lot of difference.

You might include me in the later, but not for economic reasons.

I think there is a good case for training fully autonomous divers, capable of taking responsibility for both selection, planning and execution of a dive. I think that's the kind of diver you (and many other on this board) want to train.

I also think there is a good case (or at least a market) for low commitment guided dives in a small group, good controlled conditions, and where the gear, site selection, planning and profile are left to a professional. This is the way most vacation dives are executed.

I have no real problem with "how" people get trained, my problem is that we keep dropping the bar for the access credential, thus scenes like the one in the video are now common place.

 

[timegan]

Garrobo> thats a little strong ya think? Perfection is something to strive for, thats all. Ok there new..(maybe) but sorry, destroying coral and stressing out critters just is not cool. Yes even for a rookie. Swimming vertical? standing on the bottom? Don't ever remember learning the "moon walk" in any of my classes.....mmmm maybe I missed that day. What that was, is team diving. A one team wreaking crew....mission accomplished, I guess??

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

There's no reason that such folks can't do a discover diving kinda thing.

Even non-divers on Discover Dives can easily look like divers. I worked 3 years as a full time resort instructor (part time ever since) and even before stumbling into the training controversy that is ScubaBoard most of my Intro Divers looked better in the water than the supposed divers in the OP video.

Every one of my Intros does initial skills on the bottom, on their knees, but from then on my message for them to "copy me" includes good trim, calm arms and buoyancy adjustments. Nearly every "monkey" can play the "copy me" game. All "divers" below had ~ one hour of scuba instruction before the dive the photo's happened on;

Fall '05; not quite horizontal but shorties help scare them away from the coral!


Nov. '06; more of a natural water person, certified within the next week


Summer '07; certified dad was the biggest negative of this dive


Her certified dad stayed on shore, and regretted it


Her brother did spaz when the manta circled us, but he had fun and both are now certified ​

 

[DiveTheGalapagos]

First, perfect music bed...had me laughing. Second, in another arena, it took awhile to distinguish between incompetence and inexperience. I grew to have patience with the latter. I have been out of the water years on end before and know it takes a minute to get comfortable again. Having said that, I was out 2 weeks ago with a woman (not with us..we were 2 friends and me) who, in theory, had lots of experience, already had several days of Galapagos diving under her belt and yet, it was the only time in my life I have ever seen someone walk with fins underwater rather than dive. Lots of the dive, not just a little bit.

Initially had to wait for her to descend to 40 ft...over 5 minutes of waiting. Then she walked to the point of where one of my friends went over and pumped some air into her BC. A guide saved her from sitting on a stingray while trying to capture a photo of a turtle and then she ran low on air at 25 minutes. I think it was the worst dive I ever had in the Galapagos because of one woman. We try to have divers of at least roughly the same skill level on our trips, but on paper, this woman would have qualified to dive Darwin and Wolf and yet here, at a dive site that I find just about the most boring down here, she ruined the dive for everyone. It may be unpopular, but if someone has flown all the way to get to this remote spot, who wants to spend money on something like that? It's just not fair to other divers. Accessing skill levels before grouping divers should be a given so the group doesn't overwhelm nor underwhelm the others in the group. I've also been to Darwin and Wolf with a woman who had only 20 dives and only at Wolf when you needed a minimum of 1000 psi to continue to the Pinnacles, did she have to ascend with low air. I had no idea prior to that that she was a beginner. So number of logged dives is not necessarily indicative of skill level. The beginner was a far better diver than the one with hundreds of logged dives. Does that speak to training or the individual? Could be either.

On our trips, you're warned that if you harass marine life, your diving is over for the day. It should be that way everywhere, imho, especially for dive guides who should set the example not posture for tips with those who have too little respect or education that they would even consider grabbing wildlife.

 

[ACT651755]

As I was watching that video, I found myself questioning if it was in fact some kind of spoof, comedy video!

When I saw the girl handling the Scorpion Fish I nearly crapped myself, and to think a Dive Master handed it to her?! Terrifying. She's lucky she still has the use of her hands (although perhaps it'd have forced her to practise finning with her legs!).