Compact or APSC? Any suggestions are welcome

[Nico-ITA]

Good morning everyone

I should buy my first underwater photography kit and I am very undecided about the camera, or rather the size of the sensor.
I hope someone with more experience can advise me even though I wrote a poem below!

A few premises that I feel it is essential to list :
- Photography fascinates me, but I only know the basics.
- For a short period of time I owned a Sony a6300, with which I had taken my first photography course. To date, however, I have and use only an iPhone (topside).
- Underwater I use a Gopro Hero 5, almost exclusively for video and in ambient light. I think I have squeezed it to the limit, with more than decent results.
- I always edit (basic level) any photo or video to get closer to the results I would like, with all the limitations of the files I get back from the devices I currently own.
- I would like to bring home worthy shots in the dives I do, but the Gopro is unusable for what I have in mind.
- To date, I have never thought of taking photos to print them, only to share them online and then display them on a monitor. This was certainly also because I didn't have sufficient file quality.
- In everyday life (above) I think I would be inclined to use this camera only if it is small.
- I am a technical diver, currently using Rebreather and DPV.
- The type of underwater photography I have in mind is exclusively wide angle at this time. No macro.
- The subjects I most want to capture with my photos are wrecks and people (divers). "Dramatic" photos, playing with lights.
- I mostly dive in lakes with rather poor visibility, or in the seas of northern Italy/Croatia.
- I am not in the habit of taking diving trips to tropical seas.

My plan is to start with camera + aluminum housing, so as to become familiar with the equipment and underwater photography techniques.
Later add Wide lens, strobes or any lights, so as to dilute the expense over time.
I am only considering used equipment and for camera and housing I would like to stay around 2K€.

I discarded full frames solely because of price. I discarded DSLRs and Micro 4:3 because I no longer consider them to be current technologies and I don't feel like investing in them.
With my budget I saw I could either take home a state-of-the-art compact and probably have money left over for other upgrades, or an older and more used APSC+ a lens, having to probably raise the budget I think.
After some online research, I identified the following models :
- Sony RX100 VII (Canon G/X III and Panasonic LX 10/15 should I find a one-time offer).
- Sony a6xxx (a6400 I think might be the sweet spot)
- Nauticam/ Isotta as housing.

It is precisely between compacts and APSCs that lies my doubt : one day I tell myself that a compact (+ wide lens and strobe/ lights) is sufficient and, considering I have no photography experience, it would still give me a sufficient learning curve.
I would also be more inclined to carry it with me all the time for practice and it might give me some nice topside shots as well.
The next day, however, I reconsider and am afraid that after a relatively short time I might find myself in a situation where the 1-inch sensor of a compact already fits me tightly, so I think about APSC.
Thinking about APSCs, I wonder if it makes sense for me right now to invest more in a hobby that I don't know where it will take me, although maybe with an APSC I might not feel the need to do a camera upgrade for a long time.

To close this long monologue, the real question I cannot answer is the following:
Considering the same strobe/light kit and the same wide lens, what are and where are the concrete differences I would see by taking the exact same photo with a compact and with an APSC, displaying them at full resolution on a monitor?

Any advice and thoughts are welcome.
Thank you
N

 

[arew+4]

Based on the type of images you want to take sensor size will be very important, generally, larger=less noise in low light. You should be asking yourself APSC vs Full Frame. If budget is a concern you have your answer already

 

[Barmaglot]

I wouldn't discard micro four thirds quite as readily. OM-1 is, by all accounts, an excellent camera, and a great bargain right now, if your budget is limited - you can get a used body for about $1200, and an AOI housing, complete with flash trigger and vacuum system, for $999. The manufacturer has also just announced that they're working on an firmware update to backport some of the AF improvements from OM-1 Gen II into the original OM-1, which will only make it better. However, what really stands M43 apart from other systems is the wealth of lens options that are suitable for underwater - you have 30mm, 45mm, 60mm and the unique 90mm macros, 8mm fisheye, 7-14mm, 9-18mm and 8-25mm wide-angle zooms, and the excellent 12-40mm mid-range zoom. You can also adapt the Canon 8-15mm via a glassless adapter to get a fisheye zoom, or use the 14-42mm zoom with wet lenses. The 30mm macro is a great blackwater option, and you can pair it with MWL-1/WFL09S if you expect to encounter larger subjects, such as a blanket octopus. It may be a case of 'grass is greener on the other side', but I shoot Sony APS-C, and I'm seriously envious of quite a few things in M43 platform.

 

[David Haas]

Nico-ITA,

As arew+4 says cost and especially physical size will be your deciding factors.

I still wrestle with APS-C versus my choice since 2016 of selling all my APS-C equipment and going all in with a compact Canon G7X II which I use and enjoy since then.

A compact system no matter what housing you choose will be a big part of your decision especially when it comes to traveling to dive destinations.

Everything adds up when you go larger format (APS-C or FF) with the actual camera / lens / housing / strobe(s) or video lights. Adding even the lightest tray and arms and before you know it you're taking a lot of things!

Even going all compact shooting I went through a transition the last few years from my lightweight tray and Flex arms and smaller Inon S2000 strobes.

I made photos with this set up I was very happy with printing some pretty large too. But even that tired me and since 2022 going back to a single strobe.

One flash allowed me to cut a huge amount of weight for two strobes. All that required two chargers and 16 AA Eneloop batteries! It also many times made it harder for me to get shots as I couldn't get the stubble arm in small spaces, etc.

Traveling to Raja Ampat last November and Maldives last month, February I used an Inon Shoe Base II in my Fantasea housing's cold shoe totally eliminating a tray and arm. The whole rig even floats so I wouldn't lose it

I did purchase a par of Inon S220 units since last November. The newest Inon S220 has a bit more coverage and power and shooting one worked fine for me. My next trip to Bali in May that's all I'll take again with one more addition......

I recently saw a Canon G7X II underwater shooter's photos using the latest Topaz AI software / plug in on his files The results were pretty impressive !!!! I am going to download the trial version and try it in my simple Apple Photos App I use. For $199.00 for the total Topaz AI suite this in my opinion and decent computer is a better investment.

I did that myself after 7 years traveling with my old Apple MacBook Air 11" laptop (still works, given to a friend

I treated myself to a NEW 13.6" MacBook Air with M2 chip, 16 GB and 1 TB storage That was a better investment than any larger camera system in my opinion.

While everyone debates how much $$$$ and physical size / weight equipment I just go dive and take photos

Good luck and safe diving!

David Haas

All I took to Raja Ampat and Maldives:

 

[Trilobite]

I wouldn't discard micro four thirds quite as readily...

Agree. There is nothing old about the technology; it is cutting edge. And the Oly Em10 mk IV with lenses is almost as light and compact as the compacts you are considering, but you get a larger sensor. Backscatter calls it the best bang for the buck among UW cameras.

 

[Barmaglot]

Agree. There is nothing old about the technology; it is cutting edge. And the Oly Em10 mk IV with lenses is almost as light and compact as the compacts you are considering, but you get a larger sensor. Backscatter calls it the best bang for the buck among UW cameras.

I would hesitate to agree with that assessment mostly because it has a very dated contrast-detect only autofocus system. Yes, it's light and cheap, but a Sony a6100 costs about as much, and is worlds ahead of it in AF technology. An OM-1 will set you back about $1000 more (assuming you buy the body used) between the camera and the housing, but with its stacked CMOS sensor, it is worlds ahead in AF tech.

 

[Trilobite]

I would hesitate to agree with that assessment mostly because it has a very dated contrast-detect only autofocus system. Yes, it's light and cheap, but a Sony a6100 costs about as much, and is worlds ahead of it in AF technology. An OM-1 will set you back about $1000 more (assuming you buy the body used) between the camera and the housing, but with its stacked CMOS sensor, it is worlds ahead in AF tech.

Yes, I didn't mean to suggest the EM10 IV was cutting edge tech similar to a flagship camera like the OM-1, and was expressly suggesting it as an alternative to compacts if OP prefers that route, not to the OM-1 or apsc. Obviously there are some advantages to spending more or going heavier or bigger.

But I'd also beware of autofocus improvement hype. Just because tech is newer doesn't necessarily equate to better results. One review from a site that promotes Sony cameras wasn't impressed with a6100 af underwater (typos etc. are in original):

"At times underwater it almost focused too fast where it would choose partical floating in the water instead of the subject and fire of the shot quickly. One of the most notable improvements from the Sony a6000 is the improved AF tracking including the exciting new animal eye AF. One of the often followed “rules” of underwater photography is to have your subject’s eyes in focus. Theoretically, AF tracking should make keeping the eyes in focus and easy endeavor – even with moving subjects. When we tried this with the a6100 underwater, the animal eye AF was slow to engage even on larger animal eye's such as an eel...."

Sony a6100 Review

Also, the bang for the buck comment referenced the package of the camera and housing. Not many a6100 housings seem to have been released yet, but the ones I can find online are at least several hundred dollars more expensive.

 

[Nico-ITA]

Nico-ITA,

As arew+4 says cost and especially physical size will be your deciding factors.

I still wrestle with APS-C versus my choice since 2016 of selling all my APS-C equipment and going all in with a compact Canon G7X II which I use and enjoy since then.

A compact system no matter what housing you choose will be a big part of your decision especially when it comes to traveling to dive destinations.

Everything adds up when you go larger format (APS-C or FF) with the actual camera / lens / housing / strobe(s) or video lights. Adding even the lightest tray and arms and before you know it you're taking a lot of things!

Even going all compact shooting I went through a transition the last few years from my lightweight tray and Flex arms and smaller Inon S2000 strobes.

I made photos with this set up I was very happy with printing some pretty large too. But even that tired me and since 2022 going back to a single strobe.

One flash allowed me to cut a huge amount of weight for two strobes. All that required two chargers and 16 AA Eneloop batteries! It also many times made it harder for me to get shots as I couldn't get the stubble arm in small spaces, etc.

Traveling to Raja Ampat last November and Maldives last month, February I used an Inon Shoe Base II in my Fantasea housing's cold shoe totally eliminating a tray and arm. The whole rig even floats so I wouldn't lose it

I did purchase a par of Inon S220 units since last November. The newest Inon S220 has a bit more coverage and power and shooting one worked fine for me. My next trip to Bali in May that's all I'll take again with one more addition......

I recently saw a Canon G7X II underwater shooter's photos using the latest Topaz AI software / plug in on his files The results were pretty impressive !!!! I am going to download the trial version and try it in my simple Apple Photos App I use. For $199.00 for the total Topaz AI suite this in my opinion and decent computer is a better investment.

I did that myself after 7 years traveling with my old Apple MacBook Air 11" laptop (still works, given to a friend

I treated myself to a NEW 13.6" MacBook Air with M2 chip, 16 GB and 1 TB storage That was a better investment than any larger camera system in my opinion.

While everyone debates how much $$$$ and physical size / weight equipment I just go dive and take photos

Good luck and safe diving!

David Haas

All I took to Raja Ampat and Maldives:

I find your considerations certainly fair for your use.
My case, however, is different from yours, and I fear the choice of sensor may have greater relevance.

I am not a diver who does 3-4 dives a day for a week in tropical areas overseas.
I'm more of a lake and deep wreck diver in places I can normally drive to, so I don't have to take my equipment on a plane and I dive in environments where strobes and powerful lights are a must.
It is in this scenario that I would like to understand if I can live with the 1 inch sensor of a compact, or would I immediately regret an APSC.

 

[Nico-ITA]

Based on the type of images you want to take sensor size will be very important, generally, larger=less noise in low light. You should be asking yourself APSC vs Full Frame. If budget is a concern you have your answer already

Thank you for your feedback.
So you wouldn't really consider compacts.

I'll try to give an example to see what the performance of a compact and an APSC might be.

Let's imagine a wreck in the sea at a depth of 60 meters, with decent visibility, but that is certainly not that of a tropical sea.
- In one hand I have an APSC with wide lens + strobe.
- In the other hand a Compact with wide lens + strobe.

If I took a wide picture trying to frame the whole wreck from the outside with both, would the main difference then be mainly noise?
In your opinion would you notice it only with full-screen photos in the pc, or would it jump out at once even on a phone screen?

On the other hand, if you were inside the wreck and took the picture of a person (diver), the scene would be completely dark, but illuminated by any strobes and lights.
In this case, would the noise still make a difference as in the case mentioned above?
The recovery of shadows and details in post, would it be much more complete on APSC, or would the results be similar?

Thanks!
N

 

[arew+4]

So the wide full ship you are looking at available light, a strobe will only illuminate the particulates inbetween. Sensor noise will be really important as you will be pushing shutter speeds to eliminate blur.

Inside when you're 4 to 6 feet away it's less important, a good strobe will dominate the image quality.