The Problem with Science as a Substitute

[911Diver]

One of the major problems I see in today's society is a lack of any values system among a certain percentage of the population.

My values do not require a Creator to exist. However, I have no problem with the belief that there might be one. I will live my life adhering to my principles because I think they have value, not because I am threatened with punishment if I do not.

This pretty much says it all...

 

[sandmanz32]

I find that having a values system IS important... both to me personally and to society as a whole. While mine is not a recognized religious one, it is built on many of the precepts of my religious upbringing as a Protestant. One of the major problems I see in today's society is a lack of any values system among a certain percentage of the population.

My values do not require a Creator to exist. However, I have no problem with the belief that there might be one. I will live my life adhering to my principles because I think they have value, not because I am threatened with punishment if I do not.

I agree, a system of values is important to society. When that system becomes a system of beliefs as opposed to ideas, then they're bound to be problems. Values should be instilled in children by their parents. You should teach your children how to be a good person, and to have compassion for your fellow man. Sending them to sunday school to learn," be good or go to hell" isnt going to work, IMO. Im with you on doing what you're suppose to, not because you are told to, but because you know it is the right thing to do. If more people were brought up with love and shown the correct way to treat someone, instead of being forced to be "good" by use of scare tactics, i think the world would be a much better place.

 

[AXL72]

It doesn't matter.

We (the atheists) are all gonna burn in fiery hell. Cause we are just pure evil.
We should be thrown in prison so that we are no longer a menace to polite christain society.

 

[Theunis]

We (the atheists) are all gonna burn in fiery hell.

If you, the atheist, believe that you are going to burn in hell, are you then really a atheist? Or can one believe in hell and still be an atheist?

 

[Sas]

If you, the atheist, believe that you are going to burn in hell, are you then really a atheist? Or can one believe in hell and still be an atheist?

To both questions, no. I believe he was being facetious. But actually I guess it depends on your definition of hell, I find the summers here hell and I literally burn

 

[IXΘYΣ]

Fascinating discussion.
Whenever I start thinking I have a grasp on the "big picture," I find it useful to remember what a friend of mine told me back in a quantum physics class about our vast human capacity for scientific discovery and understanding:
"The human ability to observe Creation is akin to a man looking at the earth through a straw. He can learn everything there is to know about what he sees through that straw, but he's still missing 99.999999% of the whole."
We're arrogant little buggers sometimes.

 

[redacted]

I agree, a system of values is important to society. When that system becomes a system of beliefs as opposed to ideas, then they're bound to be problems. Values should be instilled in children by their parents. You should teach your children how to be a good person, and to have compassion for your fellow man. Sending them to sunday school to learn," be good or go to hell" isnt going to work, IMO. Im with you on doing what you're suppose to, not because you are told to, but because you know it is the right thing to do. If more people were brought up with love and shown the correct way to treat someone, instead of being forced to be "good" by use of scare tactics, i think the world would be a much better place.

And then there is this concept of forgiveness of sins. There are some "trespasses" that I doubt I'd ever forgive or forget.

 

[nereas]

All of those I find interesting. And I agree strongly with the first point in particular. Also, I don't have a substitute for religion... I am not sure why I would need something to go in its place, given I have no need for religion.

A friend of mine has a plaque up on his wall, at home, that says:

"Everyone must believe in something.
I believe I will have another drink."

Everyone has needs of one sort or another. Those are his needs, apparently.

Some folks clearly have no need for any religion, true.

Some of these same folks have however invented science as their religion, unwittingly.

My point of the thread is to caution against using science in that manner, for which it is not intended, and as such it does not function validly.

There is no science-god that will come to all the science-atheists' rescue in any kind of afterlife. And there was no science-god who imprinted on every living being a personality.

To be atheist is simply to "believe" there is nothing out there, remembering that you cannot logically prove a negative, since you cannot infinitely search every cubic inch of the universe yourself.

Science should not be used as a substitute belief system, because it is merely a system and catelog of experiments and findings, coupled with ideas about the interrelationships of the findings in the nomenclature of laws, theories, and hypotheses.

And these "laws and theories" are not even set in stone. They change, over the years and decades. They are just "current science."

 

[sandmanz32]

And then there is this concept of forgiveness of sins. There are some "trespasses" that I doubt I'd ever forgive or forget.

Yea, some things are just unforgivable. Some demented child molester thats in jail for raping a toddler can just prey for forgivness and all is better, and he's a good person now? I wonder why they call it "preying"? lol! In nature predetors usually "prey" on their victims, so the word "prey" isnt a very nice one IMO.

 

[drbill]

IXΘYΣ, I agree that we can be arrogant little buggers but the arrogance can come from "both" (all?) sides of the debate.

I, for one, know I'm not smart enough to know if there is a Creator. Of course I'm smart enough to know that I can't say there isn't!

When I think back to my Protestant upbringing, I know that I always felt (even though it wasn't what I was taught) that what Christ meant by the way to heaven/God/etc was through him did not mean accepting him as one's personal savior. Why? Because that would deny the billions of people who were not Christians a place in heaven. I could not fathom a God that would do this.

What I felt instead was that the way to heaven was to act like Christ, follow the pathway He set. That way people who had never even heard of Christ could get to heaven simply by being good people and treating their fellow man and woman as they expected others to treat them. I still feel this way... live these principles regardless of whether one accepts Christ as personal savior (or even knows about Christ), and you may earn that reward in the next life.

I have a number of Christian friends. I have great respect for their values, since almost all of them are consistent in their beliefs... and those beliefs transcend their own self-interest (an emphasis that is far too prevalent these days). More than once I have had to gently remind them of their beliefs and principles, especially when dealing with other people. I do not accuse them of being hypocritical, since like all of us they are human. Almost to a person they have been thankful for my intervention. Of course I am not perfect in this respect at all.

As a scientist, I do not have verifiable evidence that God exists. However, my scientific work (especially as it relates to "nature," including physics and astronomy) certainly leaves me in awe of the beauty I see in Creation. That beauty and my awe could certainly reflect a reverence for the underlying force behind this Creation... whether it be God or the laws of physics.