The Philosophy of Diver Training

Initial Diver Training

  • Divers should be trained to be dependent on a DM/Instructor

    Votes: 3 3.7%
  • Divers should be trained to dive independently.

    Votes: 79 96.3%

  • Total voters
    82
  • Poll closed .

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Just like what BoulderJohn said research in the education was indicating. Teacher skill was the biggest (did I get that right?) variable in student performance.

Absolutely. Nothing else comes close.

Let me give you a description of a study I was involved with to show you how significant the difference can be.

An articulation area (a single high school and all its feeder schools) of a very large school district implemented an innovative writing assessment at the 4th, 8th, and 10th grade levels. I was part of a team that evaluated the results. All students were from the same demographic area, and all classes were heterogeneous (no advanced or remedial classes). In theory, all teachers were dealing with roughly the same caliber of student.

The total results were released to the public, and they showed a somewhat disappointing result of not quite 60% reaching the level termed "proficient," although the proficient level actually reflected a higher of achievement than most people realized. (The standard was pretty high.) Teachers whose students participated in the study knew two things: what the overall results were, and what their own results were.

We knew the results for all the individual teachers, though, and they were shocking. Not a single teacher had results anywhere near 60%. Many of them had results surpassing 90% proficient, with some achieving 100%. Many had results lower than 20% proficient, with some having no students proficient at all. Not one teacher had results between 25% to 80% proficient. The average reported to the public (and the teachers as a whole) was like putting your right foot in ice water and your left foot in scalding water and reporting the average temperature as a measure of comfort.

Armed with this knowledge, we gave teachers an "anonymous" survey. One of the questions asked them to reflect on how their students did. Of course, that answer told us whether the "anonymous" individual had had either excellent or horrible results. We asked the teachers about their instructional philosophy, their approach to teaching writing, their attitudes toward assessment, etc. The results were as black and white as the student scores. High achieving teachers gave totally different answers from low achieving teachers.

To me the most powerful result of the survey lay in their attitudes toward student capability. 100% of the low achieving teachers believed that student performance was almost totally dependent upon the abilities and motivation of the students, over which the teacher had little or no control. 100% of the high achieving teachers believed that all students can learn at a high level if the teacher uses learning strategies that will work with them on an individual basis.
 
They just don't allow enough time for a person to assimilate these skills.

That's up to the local shop / instructor.
 
Walter, you missed the point in favor of being anal. The point is... He claimed to author this standard 15 years ago. It has changed within the last five or so.
Frankly I don't remember if it was enacted as part of the standards overhaul that I did for NAUI, or if it was put in place later (they did not take all of my suggestions, just most). The swim a few strokes, and if you clearly know how to swim, call it a day, was originally proposed to me by John Wozny (NAUI 1442) and was included in my proposal to NAUI.
 
That's up to the local shop / instructor.

Perhaps it is in some places - I've seen a fair amount of PADI OW courses now and I've never observed more than the minimum. Granted most of my experience of these courses has been in tourist locations. But not exclusively and my OW instructor here in the UK who is also a tech instructor, showed **** all interest in going above and beyond. This is not a criticism, just my observations. Maybe other places are different - I know that no matter what agency I trained with that if I was training someone (and I don't, at least not formally but considering doing so informally) I would give them every ounce of knowledge and every trick and tip that my limited experience could give them.

J
 
Perhaps it is in some places - I've seen a fair amount of PADI OW courses now and I've never observed more than the minimum. Granted most of my experience of these courses has been in tourist locations.
J

Yep.

My own OW instruction came in a resort area, and it was ridiculously short. Many of the standards were skipped entirely. I never had to swim or float. Only a couple of hours total in a pool with a maximum depth of 5 feet. No CESA. No hover. No underwater compass navigation. No snorkel skills. Only one member of a buddy team went OOA, and there as no ascent after it.

Not all of them are like that, but the one I experienced certainly was.
 
Frankly I don't remember if it was enacted as part of the standards overhaul that I did for NAUI, or if it was put in place later (they did not take all of my suggestions, just most). The swim a few strokes, and if you clearly know how to swim, call it a day, was originally proposed to me by John Wozny (NAUI 1442) and was included in my proposal to NAUI.

I agree that whether someone can swim or not can be determined by watching them do a few strokes. But what method do you use instead of a distance/time swim to judge their physical stamina? I've always thought that the swim requirement (along with an underwater breathhold swim) was designed to serve two purposes, to demonstrate water comfort/ability and test physical condition.

Guy
 
Last edited:
I agree that whether someone can swim or not can be determined by watching them do a few strokes. But what method do you use instead of a distance/time swim to judge their physical stamina? I've always though that the swim requirement (along with an underwater breathhold swim) was designed to serve two purposes, to demonstrate (test, if you will) water comfort/ability and physical condition.

Guy

I'm going to get shot down here, and in a hurry, I know.

I don't view swimming ability as a major concern to diving. I think they are different skills.

I can swim, but my technique is relatively poor (in terms of strokes).

I can dive, my technique is relatively good (in terms of strokes)

I'm very happy in the water irrespective of whether I'm swimming or diving but I'd feel a little baffled being judged on my diving ability based upon my swimming skills.

They're not the same.

J

edit: to make a crass analogy, it's like taking someone's basketball skills as an indication of how good they are at football (by that I mean proper football, soccer :D)
 
I'm going to get shot down here, and in a hurry, I know.

I don't view swimming ability as a major concern to diving. I think they are different skills.

I can swim, but my technique is relatively poor (in terms of strokes).

I can dive, my technique is relatively good (in terms of strokes)

I'm very happy in the water irrespective of whether I'm swimming or diving but I'd feel a little baffled being judged on my diving ability based upon my swimming skills.

They're not the same.

J

edit: to make a crass analogy, it's like taking someone's basketball skills as an indication of how good they are at football (by that I mean proper football, soccer :D)

The reason why some of us feel that swimming ability is important to a diver was discussed/debated in another thread recently, so there's no point repeating it. I think this post by Nemrod accurately sums up the rationale of people like myself who feel that way:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/324685-padi-swim-test-10.html#post5072722

It is probably no surprise that many, perhaps most of us who feel this way are strong swimmers, often former/current competitive swimmers, lifeguards etc.

Guy
 
I suspect that is true. Take my case, I teach almost exactly the course I was taught (modified slightly for changes in gear and environment), and I teach it almost exactly the way it was taught to me. So I get great results. This is strengthened by the fact that the Instructors we trained, whom we first trained as divers have a similar experience.

Think about this for a minute:

My transition from classroom teacher to what I later became started when I was selected to be part of a small group of very successful teachers going to some workshops on different teaching strategies. We were all taken aback by what we saw that first day. It was all very different from what we had always done. It all seemed wrong to us. On the second day of the workshops only one other teacher from our group and I returned. The rest dismissed it out of hand because it looked so wrong.

I went back because a couple of points had bugged me (the technical term for this is that it created a cognitive dissonance), and I wanted to hear more. I grew intrigued by it, and I decided to try one of the ideas in my class. I was about to teach one of my favorite lessons (On Oedipus Rex), the kind of instruction I felt was so successful that if I ever wanted anyone to judge my quality, it would be on that lesson. I totally redid it in a way looked nothing like what I had done before.

The results were so stunningly successful that my cognitive dissonance went through the roof. I began doing research and trying one new thing after another. Before long I was a totally different teacher, and when I looked back at my past experiences, the ones that had gotten me a reputation as a successful teacher, I now saw them as failures. When I met former students and they began to gush about how great my class was, I felt like apologizing.

I was teaching in a school with low student demographics, a school with no history of academic success. I talked the English Department into using some of these methods in writing instruction, and in two years we went from next to last to first in a district of 20 high schools in writing assessment results.

My colleagues who had walked out of the workshops had other ideas, though. They clung to their older methodologies, and fought my attempts to change things. They had always been successful doing things this way, they argued, and they ridiculed all change. I was teaching Advanced Placement, and one year I had more students get the highest possible score (5) than all the other AP classes in the school had pass the exam (3) combined. But those teachers kept insisting I was doing it all wrong. One teacher, who never had a single student pass the AP exam, even told the students we had in common that I was teaching them wrong and he was doing it right.

But all the studies aside, if there is a consistent and high level evaluation of the final product (which we have always had) and there is an almost non-existent failure rate … I’d be inclined to go with the obvious … we have a program that delivers a quality product. On the other hand, when you look at the PADI program (or other also) that have a rather low bar and yet have a significant failure rate, you have to ask if they have any idea of what they are doing, or do they know exactly what they are doing for reasons that are completely clear. If you have another explanation, fell free to chime in.

f.

As I said earlier, there are too many variables at play here to make a comparison. I pointed out that studies have shown that teachers in disadvantaged schools are often (definitely not always) doing a much better job than teachers in schools in affluent communities when you compare the difference between entrance and exit performance, and all studies have shown this to be true. Yet, if you were to look at the measures that the public usually uses, you get a totally different perspective. The school my children attended is proud of the number of students they send to prestigious universities, yet I know that the last accreditation evaluation they received was scathing in part. A friend of mine was on that team, and he said the school's motto should be "A School for the dedicated, self-motivated, independent learner, and the rest of you can just go to Hell."

After I went through the transformation described above, I studied education theory because my new job was to try to teach other teachers to do what I was doing. (It was a very misguided and now thoroughly discredited theory that teachers will listen more to other teachers than to experts.) That as in the early to mid 1990s. When I became a scuba instructor years later, I had to read the Undersea Journal articles PADI had put out in early to mid 1990s trying to explain why they were doing what they were doing in their changes. I was surprised to see them citing some of the same research I had been reading then. So I would say that, yes, PADI has a very firm pedagogical foundation for what they are doing.

[By the way, little has changed in education since those days. The methods to which I was introduced back then are very much accepted by education experts, and very much ignored by classroom teachers, who still continue to teach the way they were taught. The state content standards for the most part (with a few glaring exceptions) are written with those approaches in mind, and one of the biggest problems with that is that it creates a mismatch between what the teachers are doing and what the state says they are supposed to be producing.]​
 
I did hold CMAS/BSAC coming from cold UK waters in high regard until I came across a group last year and that put paid to it. Being generous they were very average. In fact they were pretty ****. Anyhow though...

The skills covered in OW are perfectly fine. They just don't allow enough time for a person to assimilate these skills.

The reward you get from a risky activity is the risk itself.

Hi John,

For your first point above, well there are the diving skills, and then the attitude, which is a different story. Once I was on a liveaboard (at St-John reefs :)) with some French CMAS** and *** divers that I found disgusting (also underwater) yet they were technically well skilled divers.

For your second point, yes in an OW course there are many things to do, and we are running out of time. The instructor as well as the students. The training is aimed, probably, at fitting within one's week of vacations, and that's understandable. This running after time explains why many instructors (who very often are very poorly paid) are tempted to skip skills, as yourself and Boulderjohn said. I consider personnally that the rate of the OW course should be minimum 400 euros per student for 2 students in Egypt (for example) to get the full intensive course (with nothing skipped) ; and that the duration of the OW course should be 5 days minimum. There are also tricks, like at the end of each confined water session you do a 30 minutes fun dive (at the maximum depth defined by the standards). Which means you have done 9 actual dives at the end of the course, and not only 4. That takes more time. Some dive centers do all that. Clearly this is the responsability of the dive operation, and of the discerning (or not) customers.

For your third point, well I guessed it since you're keen on the Oceanic Whitetips :). But not everyone is or remains the same in that respect. I practised both sport and trad climbing when I was younger, but now I am too old for runouts and too young too die :) so moderately hard sport climbing is enough for me. But yes, a (mastered) thrill can be an important part of fun while diving.

Walter pointed out that the motivation of the would-be diver is important, and of course that's true. I don't consider that the once-in-a-lifetime climber (preferably on the Matterhorn or the Mont Blanc :)) is a climber, and I am afraid the same applies to the once-in-a-lifetime diver. Maybe for this "diver" the best would be to do successive DSDs, or stop at PADI Scuba Diver certification, so the OW course could be for really, long-term motivated students.

Finally I don't consider this thread is only about agencies fighting. I feel there are important issues underneath, amongst them the freedom of diving independently, and the opportunity of having diving contributing to the development of the personality.

All the best,
HG

PS: I completely agree with you about the swimming: I think it's heavily overrated for diving. Many people are poor swimmers because they cannot synchronize breathing and strokes. With a reg in your mouth this issue vanishes. And BTW I have seen very poor swimmers who were good divers, and the opposite. About controling panic, other sports like climbing (for self-control) and free-diving (for managing OOA) are more relevant than swimming IMO.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom