The Philosophy of Diver Training

[hg frogman]

Both PADI and ACUC OW, NAUI SCUBA Diver and CMAS ** are certified to dive independently; as you've mentioned, CMAS * can't. I know it's impossible to precisely compare, but the first CMAS level allowing the diver to dive independently is CMAS **. It seems equitable (to me at least) to compare training levels that allow the diver to dive without supervision and what that entails.

Said accurately, like this, yes, it makes sense to me. And I agree it's directly related to your OP.

There seems to be differences between CMAS training in North America and in France (not really astonishing given CMAS is a confederation with many different federations). CMAS* seems to be more demanding in North America.

To be fair towards PADI, I feel that French rules (CMAS* divers must be supervised underwater, ratio 1:4, and CMAS** divers can dive independently down to 20-25 meters) are sort of "binary", "black or white", while PADI statement that an OWD can dive independently "within the limits of his training and experience" give some extra flexibility. One can also call it "grey area" but grey is not always bad.

To be fair towards CMAS, I have not seen many crap CMAS** divers.

Diver0001, as far as I know, the European norm about diving is a copy and paste from PADI standards, thanks to the Austrian Diving Federation (go figure). That's why this European norm is not recognized (at least yet) in France.

 

[The Chairman]

quality has change in the fifteen years since I first wrote it, and now it needs to be revised.

This wasn't the standard in 2001. 200 yards was the standard back then. The current standard is some of the worse crapsmanship I have seen: are you SURE you authored it? Funny, how you won't give PADI the same allowance that you do other agencies.

 

[Walter]

This wasn't the standard in 2001. 200 yards was the standard back then.

Actually, NAUI's standard was 225 yds before it was changed to 12 stroke cycles.

 

[The Chairman]

Walter, you missed the point in favor of being anal. The point is... He claimed to author this standard 15 years ago. It has changed within the last five or so.

 

[DCBC]

Said accurately, like this, yes, it makes sense to me. And I agree it's directly related to your OP.

There seems to be differences between CMAS training in North America and in France (not really astonishing given CMAS is a confederation with many different federations). CMAS* seems to be more demanding in North America.

To be fair towards PADI, I feel that French rules (CMAS* divers must be supervised underwater, ratio 1:4, and CMAS** divers can dive independently down to 20-25 meters) are sort of "binary", "black or white", while PADI statement that an OWD can dive independently "within the limits of his training and experience" give some extra flexibility. One can also call it "grey area" but grey is not always bad.

To be fair towards CMAS, I have not seen many crap CMAS** divers.

Diver0001, as far as I know, the European norm about diving is a paste and copy from PADI standards, thanks to the Austrian Diving Federation (go figure). That's why this European norm is not recognized (at least yet) in France.

Thanks. Yes there are some differences between CMAS (France) and CMAS (Americas). I quoted the CMAS (Americas) standards to Diver0001. Canada takes theirs from CMAS (France), perhaps because French is an official language here; I don't know. In CMAS (Americas) a CMAS * diver is allowed to dive independently to a maximum depth of 60' (18M) after certification, so for them we could compare PADI to CMAS *, but even this program requires a 40 hour minimum course, which I believe is quite a bit more extensive than the PADI Standard which in 1992 was 27 hours (I don't know what it is now).

Actually, I have yet to see a crap CMAS ** diver; with 100 hours of training and 26 training dives, I guess this can be expected.

 

[Walter]

Walter, you missed the point in favor of being anal. The point is... He claimed to author this standard 15 years ago. It has changed within the last five or so.

Sorry Pete, but I think the change was on the order of 7 or 8 years ago. He didn't say it went into effect immediately, merely that he first wrote it about 15 years ago. I've never been a NAUI instructor so I've certainly never been on the board. I don't have first hand knowledge of who wrote that particular standard, when it was written nor how much time elapsed between the time it was written and the time it was adopted. I do know it's not 4 stroke cycles and it wasn't 200 yds before the change.

It seems you are applying different standards to precision and accuracy to some people than to others.

You say DCBC is wrong when he says NAUI requires swimming and allows buddy breathing. He was actually correct. He merely did not give some details about the swimming requirement nor did he mention the one instance in which buddy breathing is prohibited. Neither of which made his statement wrong.

 

[Walter]

for them we could compare PADI to CMAS *, but even this program requires a 40 hour minimum course, which I believe is quite a bit more extensive than the PADI Standard which in 1992 was 27 hours (I don't know what it is now).

In 2002, there was no minimum number of hours, although 31 hours were recommended.

 

[Diver0001]

To be fair towards CMAS, I have not seen many crap CMAS** divers.

Well.... we have a lot of both CMAS and PADI divers around here and under water they all look the same to me. There are small differences like the local CMAS bond encourages (or mandates?) using a buddy line, but in terms of skills I don't see a difference. It's like red and yellow popsicles. Different but the same.

One of the most interesting experiences I had when I first moved to Europe was to dive off of a boat full of BSAC (CMAS) divers. I had a great time diving with them but I was quite surprised, because I had read on the internet about how good their training was, to see how chaotic and sloppy they looked under water. Maybe it was that one particular club but it goes to show you that just like in the PADI system, it depends mostly on the instructor, I guess.

Just like what BoulderJohn said research in the education was indicating. Teacher skill was the biggest (did I get that right?) variable in student performance. It's like this in diving too.

In short, I'm sure there are good and bad divers from every organisation out there and if someone is lucky enough, or careful enough, to get a good instructor, then they'll get good training. Agency standards play a marginal roll.

What a lot of these discussions come down to is someone saying "I am better than you because...." and then backing it up with whatever they think people are stupid enough to believe. These things happen in other sports too. Discussions between Karate and Kung-Fu practitioners are every bit as intense and everyone is every bit as convinced that "their team" has the advantage. But in open martial arts competitions, the differnce between winning and losing isn't your style.... It's "who showed up".

That's why this European norm is not recognized (at least yet) in France.

That is, of course, the perrogative of teh French until their parliment ratifies it. Norms are not laws. In other countries in Europe where CMAS operates this norm is accepted.

DCBC, I got the information I quoted earlier here:
CMAS - World Underwater Federation

I guess you're quoting from a different source.

R..

 

[Diver0001]

Actually, the NetDoc, Walter sidebar is highly amusing, isn't it? To a casual observer, this thread must be like watching Jerry Springer! LOL

R..

 

[Walter]

Be that as it may, we do not have children together.