The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Kingpatzer]

Have you seen people die while scuba diving?

I was in the Army. I've seen plenty of people die. Not diving, but I don't have any reason to believe it's any better or worse than what I have experienced.

To get a military driver's license for quite a few vehicles used to be little more than a check out drive in that vehicle. If you didn't kill the instructor, you got a card.

And everyone knew that the training was rather perfunctory.

But when 18 year old kids drove their deuce and a half's into a rock and kills themselves and two others while baja'ing across the desert, we didn't bemoan their lack of training. We lay the blame squarely where it belonged -- on Darwin.

I'm not saying a person dying isn't a tragedy. I firmly believe in the sanctity of human life. My own experiences have taught me very hard lessons on how precious life is. And any contention that I don't care about people's lives or safety is simply beyond the pale.

But those same lessons also taught me that you cant' keep everyone safe. You can't save everyone. And some people are going to die doing the darnedest things.

You can only spend so much time in your life training and practicing. Sooner or later you either, as Yoda so eloquently said "do or do not." Scuba, within recreational limits, even in nominally difficult conditions, is simply not hard. And our lives are too precious to spend too much of it training and not so much doing.

 

[DCBC]

i doubt anyone is familiar with the standards of all agencies. I'll start such a list:

Sei
naui

acuc
cmas

 

[DCBC]

Getting back to the topic, there are differences in the training philosophies of various certifications. It might be beneficial to list these differences for Openwater / equivalent training. This will get the ball rolling for discussion purposes

Agency instructors, please add additional agencies as appropriate and add and/or modify so as to insure accuracy.

ACUC, CMAS, SEI, NAUI

Must be able to swim
Buddy Breathing required
Rescue of Submerged Diver required

PADI

Must pass an in-water assessment
Buddy Breathing prohibited
Rescue of Submerged Diver prohibited

 

[The Chairman]

You are wrong (again).

NAUI

Recovery of unconscious Submerged Diver required.
Buddy breathing is NOT required and PROHIBITED on ascent.
Swimming requirement is to watch four cycles (strokes?)

 

[Walter]

ACUC, CMAS, SEI, NAUI

Must be able to swim
Buddy Breathing required
Rescue of Submerged Diver required

SEI encourages, but does not require buddy breathing. I wish it would, but the public's irrational fear of HIV transmission prevents it. I do require buddy breathing in my classes.

Swimming requirement is to watch four cycles (strokes?)

I thought it was 12.

 

[hg frogman]

In France, for CMAS* course (entry-level) I am sure there is NO requirement of Rescue or Recovery of Submerged Diver (this is done for CMAS**). Also the swimming assessment (50 meters swim only) is easier than PADI's.

French CMAS* is actually more akin PADI Scuba Diver (except that CMAS* can go deeper : 20 to 25 meters) but is officially considered as equivalent to PADI OWD by both French law and PADI. In France, CMAS* divers can't dive independently, they must have direct supervision underwater with a maximum ratio of 1:4. But many French clubs do uber-standard CMAS* courses (but without any kind of rescue or recovery) to keep the students occupied once every week in the pool.

French CMAS** is hard. Rescue of unconscious diver from 20 meters to the surface; buddy ascent from 20 meters to the surface while buddy-breathing; underwater navigation; deco diving; overall assessment in real conditions. Usually CMAS* divers don't consider trying CMAS** until they have logged 30 to 50 dives. Many would-be CMAS** are failed at the first time and need a second full week of training to succeed.

(Added afterwards) The official crossovers in France with PADI are :
- PADI considers CMAS* as OWD
- PADI considers CMAS** as AOWD
- French CMAS does NOT consider PADI OWD nor PADI AOWD as CMAS**

So, at least in France, a PADI OWD and a CMAS** are NOT equivalent or similar. Far from it ! CMAS* is more similar to PADI OWD, though the standards for PADI OWD are higher than for CMAS*.

By the way, I have seen many crap divers, and a crap diver is not able to hover 30 seconds, or to do a decent 15 meters no-mask-swim-then-replace-mask-and-clear, which both are part of PADI standards for OWD. I don't believe that PADI standards for OWD are low.

 

[The Chairman]

I thought it was 12.

They might have changed it again... I personally require 200 yds and a 15 minute survival float/tread. Still, whether its four cycles or a dozen, that's not much of a "swim".

I utilize horizontal buddy breathing for confidence building only and stress why their buddy should have a working octo.

This is why it's important for instructors from their respective agencies to report on what their agency requires. Can they be wrong? Sure, but they understand the corporate philosophy far better than those on the outside looking in.

FWIW, there have been a number of embolisms incurred during buddy breathing drills. It doesn't even take negligence by the instructor for this to happen, though that will contribute significantly to any tragedy. Suggesting that PADI, NAUI and SDI are trying to injure divers by not requiring this deprecated skill, when in fact their motive is quite the opposite is nothing but bashing them.

While you might not understand their actions when the remove a skill, you can bet that risk management (safety) was their biggest concern and not merely trying to make more money.

 

[DCBC]

SEI encourages, but does not require buddy breathing. I wish it would, but the public's irrational fear of HIV transmission prevents it. I do require buddy breathing in my classes. ... I thought it was 12.

Thanks Walter. The point is to differentiate the requirements of each agency, so a clearer picture of their training philosophy can be established.

As an amendment:

ACUC, CMAS, SEI, NAUI

Must be able to swim and pass an in-water assessment
Buddy Breathing allowed (required in some agencies)
Rescue/Recovery of Submerged Diver required

PADI

Must pass an in-water assessment
Buddy Breathing prohibited
Rescue of Submerged Diver prohibited

 

[DCBC]

In France, for CMAS * course (entry-level) I am sure there is NO requirement of Rescue of Submerged Diver (this is done for CMAS **).

French CMAS * is actually akin PADI Scuba Diver (except that CMAS * can go deeper). CMAS * can't dive independently, they must have direct supervision underwater with a maximum ratio of 1:4. But many French clubs do uber-standard CMAS * courses to keep the students occupied once every week in the pool.

French CMAS ** is hard. Rescue of unconscious diver from 20 meters to the surface ; buddy ascent from 20 meters to the surface while buddy-breathing ; underwater navigation ; deco diving ; overall assessment in real conditions. Usually CMAS * divers don't consider trying CMAS ** until they have logged 30 to 50 dives. Many would-be CMAS ** are failed at the first time and need a second full week of training to succeed.

Thanks for the input. As you've mentioned, CMAS * is equivalent to PADI SCUBA Diver. CMAS ** is similar to PADI OW and NAUI SCUBA Diver (btw I'm a CMAS *** instructor). The CMAS standards are higher than the other agencies mentioned, but unless you see a problem, we can let it stand for discussion purposes.

 

[The Chairman]

ACUC, CMAS, SEI, NAUI

Must be able to swim and pass an in-water assessment
Buddy Breathing allowed (required in some agencies)
Rescue/Recovery of Submerged Diver required

Still not accurate for NAUI in regards to "swim" or what they allow on buddy breathing. It appears that you are trying to isolate PADI, but most can see through that subterfuge, to what your agenda really is.