The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Walter]

Still not accurate for NAUI in regards to "swim" or what they allow on buddy breathing.

It looks accurate to me, what am I missing?

 

[hg frogman]

DCBC:
I disagree with what you wrote about CMAS in your previous post, about PADI OWD and CMAS** being similar. For the training involved, they definately aren't similar. From the crossover point of view, they are not similar. I modified my previous post accordingly (I don't like to pollute threads by too many posts).

But I understand the point you make thereafter.

I don't want to be chauvinistic (I don't think I am) and I am not claiming that French training is especially better than others.
But I believe than comparing different trainings with some accuracy provides helpful insights for the subject at hand.

 

[DCBC]

...French CMAS* is actually akin PADI Scuba Diver (except that CMAS* can go deeper) but is officially considered as equivalent to PADI OWD by both French law and PADI. CMAS* divers can't dive independently, they must have direct supervision underwater with a maximum ratio of 1:4.

Both PADI and ACUC OW, NAUI SCUBA Diver and CMAS ** are certified to dive independently; as you've mentioned, CMAS * can't. I know it's impossible to precisely compare, but the first CMAS level allowing the diver to dive independently is CMAS **. It seems equitable (to me at least) to compare training levels that allow the diver to dive without supervision and what that entails.

 

[Walter]

DCBC, the problem arises from the differing philosophies of the various agencies. In some cases there are no true equivalent certifications moving from one agency to another. At best, some are somewhat similar.

Some agencies require skills in their entry level class that are never even required through instructor in another agency's program. That does not mean the entry level diver from one is equivalent to an instructor in the other. It means there is no equivalent.

 

[The Chairman]

It looks accurate to me, what am I missing?

There is no distance requirement in the swim, and there are conditions in which having your students buddy breathe would violate standards.

You have said in the past that NAUI no longer requires swimming as a requisite for being certified. To some extent, it is true.

 

[Walter]

There is no distance requirement in the swim, and there are conditions in which having your students buddy breathe would violate standards.

True, but I still think his statement was accurate. He did not claim there was a distance requirement for the swim nor did he say buddy breathing was allowed in all circumstances.

You have said in the past that NAUI no longer requires swimming as a requisite for being certified. To some extent, it is true.

I don't remember ever saying that. I don't believe 12 (or 4, if they changed it) stroke cycles is adequate, but the rest of the wording in that standard does make up (somewhat) for the lack of distance. You do have to be able to swim to pass NAUI's requirements. NAUI does have a distance requirement (50 feet, if memory serves) for their underwater swim.

PADI and SSI (and perhaps others) have made swimming optional. NAUI (last I heard) had not.

I do prefer SEI's 300 yd swimming requirement.

 

[Diver0001]

I know it's impossible to precisely compare, but the first CMAS level allowing the diver to dive independently is CMAS **. It seems equitable (to me at least) to compare training levels that allow the diver to dive without supervision and what that entails.

According to PADI and according to EU norms, the CMAS * is supposed to be equivalent to PADI OW.

Redefining it so it fits into your world view only makes it "seem equitable" in your mind.

Here is a complete list of the rescue skills for a CMAS * diver, copied verbatim from their standards:

RESCUE SKILLS
Controlled buoyancy lift of victim to surface.
Surface support and towing.
Correct position for expired air resuscitation at surface, importance of neck extension.
Calling and signalling for help.

The depth of the CBL is not defined. Nor is it stipulated that it must be done in OW. IN fact, CMAS doesn't stipulate at all what the instructor must do in OW. It just says "5 Open Water dives".

How's that for vague?

Surface support and towing is presumably equivalent to the PADI system, although the distance is not defined in CMAS.

The correct position for rescue breathing is not taught in the PADI system until the rescue level. I'm not sure what value this skill has, however, if you're only training "the position" at the one-star level.

Calling an signalling for help is covered in both systems, of course.

Cramp removal self/buddy is not stipulated at all in CMAS at any level. It's done in OW in the PADI system.

So where does that leave us?

..... with one CMAS instructor on Scubaboard who really believes that since the PADI system doesn't teach a CBL until the rescue level that "The CMAS standards are higher than the other agencies mentioned"

YYMV but I'm not inclined to write off an entire agency due to the sequencing one particular skill.

R..

 

[DCBC]

DCBC, the problem arises from the differing philosophies of the various agencies. In some cases there are no true equivalent certifications moving from one agency to another. At best, some are somewhat similar.

Some agencies require skills in their entry level class that are never even required through instructor in another agency's program. That does not mean the entry level diver from one is equivalent to an instructor in the other. It means there is no equivalent.

My original posting surrounded what people felt was required; training a diver to dive independently, or supervised by an instructor or a DM. Over 96% of the people who responded to the survey felt that divers should be trained to dive independently.

It would seem that the next logical step to examine, would be to examine what each of the certification agencies offers by way of "unsupervised diver training." Rather than looking at the similarities between the programs, such as clearing a mask, etc. I thought it easier to look at the differences. If we could specify these for as many training agencies that we can, I think it may be useful to new divers (one of the reasons why I listed this thread in the Basic SCUBA Discussion area).

It has been noted by a few people already that many new divers don't know what they are buying when they walk into a LDS. Many dive shops don't compare their program with what's available by their competitors, so a number of people buy the program with their eyes closed. Perhaps this information would provide real value to those who are inquiring about diver training. Many frequent SB for this purpose.

 

[Thalassamania]

You are wrong (again).

NAUI

Recovery of unconscious Submerged Diver required.
Buddy breathing is NOT required and PROHIBITED on ascent.
Swimming requirement is to watch four cycles (strokes?)

Still not accurate for NAUI in regards to "swim" or what they allow on buddy breathing. It appears that you are trying to isolate PADI, but most can see through that subterfuge, to what your agenda really is.

There is no distance requirement in the swim, and there are conditions in which having your students buddy breathe would violate standards.

You have said in the past that NAUI no longer requires swimming as a requisite for being certified. To some extent, it is true.

I have clarified this question often in the past, so as the author of it I would appreciate your ceasing to truculently misinterpret it.

NAUI Instructor are supposed to be a cut above and not to sea-lawyer their way through the standards. The intent of the standard is to assure that incoming students have sufficient watermanship to be ready to learn to dive. If that is not how the standard is being used in practice, than either I misjudged the quality of NAUI Instructors or their quality has change in the fifteen years since I first wrote it, and now it needs to be revised.

 

[DCBC]

Here is a complete list of the rescue skills for a CMAS * diver, copied verbatim from their standards:

RESCUE SKILLS
Controlled buoyancy lift of victim to surface.
Surface support and towing.
Correct position for expired air resuscitation at surface, importance of neck extension.
Calling and signalling for help.

The depth of the CBL is not defined. Nor is it stipulated that it must be done in OW. IN fact, CMAS doesn't stipulate at all what the instructor must do in OW. It just says "5 Open Water dives".

How's that for vague?

Surface support and towing is presumably equivalent to the PADI system, although the distance is not defined in CMAS.

The correct position for rescue breathing is not taught in the PADI system until the rescue level. I'm not sure what value this skill has, however, if you're only training "the position" at the one-star level.

Calling an signalling for help is covered in both systems, of course.

Cramp removal self/buddy is not stipulated at all in CMAS at any level. It's done in OW in the PADI system.

So where does that leave us?

..... with one CMAS instructor on Scubaboard who really believes that since the PADI system doesn't teach a CBL until the rescue level that "The CMAS standards are higher than the other agencies mentioned"

YYMV but I'm not inclined to write off an entire agency due to the sequencing one particular skill.

R..

CMAS One Star Diving Standards

Emergency Skills:
• Transport a diver simulating exhaustion for a distance of at least 50 yards (45m)
maintaining eye-to-eye or voice contact between rescuer and diver needing
assistance.
• Demonstrate controlled air sharing as both donor and receiver while in a stationary
position in confined water and at a minimum depth of 15 feet (4.6 m) in open water.
• Successfully demonstrate a controlled emergency swimming ascent in both confined and open water from a minimum depth of 15 feet (4.6 m).
• Demonstrate air sharing as both a donor and a receiver utilizing an alternate air
source during ascents in confined water and from a minimum depth of 15 feet (4.6m)
to the surface in open water. (Do not use buddy breathing)
• Demonstrate recovering a diver simulating unconsciousness to the surface from a
depth of approximately 10 feet (3 m), removing victim’s weight system, as appropriate,
mask and snorkel and simulate in-water rescue breathing for a minimum distance of
25 yards (23m).
• On scuba in confined water remove mask and perform equipment adjustments
including, buoyancy control, loose weight belt adjustment, swim 50 feet underwater
guided by buddy. May not surface until swim is completed.

Still on your charger defending SB from lairs and cowards I see...