The Philosophy of Diver Training

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't need to know how to land a jump to ride my Harley Sport around town on a sunny day. But if I want to take up off-road racing, I better learn before I get to the track.

Tables are the same way. In some applications they are (currently) essential. That doesn't mean they are necessary for everyone.

Nice non-sequitur ... you continue to demonstrate that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[HenrikBP]

Go read the tech forum here and see how many of the "well trained" divers started out going through PADI. It's a fairly substantial number. How many of GUE's fundies students start with PADI? Where are the entry level divers going to come from?

An interesting question along those lines - which also actually pertains to the discussion - might be which of the "started PADI - then took Fundies" (or similar) divers did so because they were frustrated by the big "gaps" in skills and training they felt were left post PADI OW (and AOW and Peak Performance Buoyancy and Deep and Nitrox in my case).

Well, count me in that group

To complete the picture; I took a good, non-rushed PADI class (4 weeks I think) with a thorough instructor. Did very well in both book and pool skills. Was complemented on my good skills performance when I did my check-out dives in St. Croix with an instructor who is a Women's Hall-of-Fame diver. So I think I got the most that I could out of my OW course.

Henrik

 

[DCBC]

Let's, for the sake of this "discussion" presume that the padi bashers are correct in believing PADI is a hopelessly dangerous organization which must be banned from teaching scuba since they're trying to kill divers with their substandard training.

Precisely where are people to go for dive training then?

Around here the non-PADI shops can be counted on two fingers, and they are both far too small and with too few instructors to support the demand for divers. There are virtually no non-PADI shops in large segments of the country. If you go to the Caribbean it's rather difficult to find a non-PADI shop in many locations.

It is abundantly clear that no other agency has the presence, staff or perhaps even desire to meet the demand.

Now, aside from suggesting that the non-divers should either just not take up the sport, or stand in line for years and pay through the nose for their courses, is there any thought as to what those who want to dive should do if the wish is granted for PADI to stop teaching?

Go read the tech forum here and see how many of the "well trained" divers started out going through PADI. It's a fairly substantial number. How many of GUE's fundies students start with PADI? Where are the entry level divers going to come from?

Or can SEI, GUE and what ever other acceptable agencies there are magically turn out 160,000 instructors over night. Or is the idea really that some folks just don't want there to be as many divers? In which case how do you avoid charges of elitism?

Much has been discussed earlier in this thread on the diver certification "market." From what I know about business, if a market exists, it is only a matter of time before someone addresses it. What obvious area in Society (like the one you describe) is there where there is money to be made, where there is no attempt to meet the demands of the market?

I don't recall that anyone has said that "PADI is a hopelessly dangerous organization which must be banned from teaching scuba since they're trying to kill divers with their substandard training." What I have said is that I believe that:

1. The PADI OW program standards are universal and applied to all diving conditions.

I have noted that PADI's in-water assessment of using FMS and drownproofing does not require the student to be able to swim. I possessed this ability before I could swim and could have successfully completed this assessment. Walter has related that this would apply to him as well.

I have described my local water conditions and have stated that I would be negligent to put a student with this level of performance in such conditions and you have agreed that this would be the case, yet PADI continues to certify divers in these conditions with minimal in-water ability.

2. PADI instructors who consider their local diving conditions more challenging, are not at liberty to require more of their students than what is outlined within PADI standards and must certify all students that meet these standards.

Unlike every other agency whose instructors are allowed to increase the standards as they see fit, PADI does not allow its instructors to do so and requires all students to be certified once its standards are met.

3. PADI instructors are not at liberty to add course content to the PADI program, nor may they test/evaluate a student on this material for certification purposes.

It has been eluded to by various PADI instructors that they do their best (of which I have no doubt) to work around the rules to insure that their divers have the skills they need. I personally however ran aground with PADI by teaching altitude tables to my students whose local diving area was in the mountains of British Columbia! I was also prohibited from teaching them sub-surface rescue.

I have not argued that many things may have changed within the PADI organization, since I was a PADI instructor, but even after asking for someone to phone PADI HQ and ask if they could run an exam on tide tables as a requirement for certification purposes, no one has taken me up on the offer. It was said that this would be adding something to the PADI program which is not allowed! How else can you as an instructor show that they have the required skill-sets to dive safely in local waters that have the World's largest tides? How else would you as an instructor prove that you acted in a reasonable way when faced with litigation?

4. Sub-surface Rescue/recovery of a diver is prohibited for inclusion in a PADI OW program.

Several people here have expressed that this skill is a requirement (in their opinion) to be prepared to act as a responsible buddy and be able to dive unsupervised. Over 96% of the people in the survey felt this was required. All non-PADI diver programs that I'm aware of require this skill be taught. Is it not reasonable to believe how some people honestly feel that it should be? Why are they considered PADI bashers? Because they disagree with PADI's standards? If you see anything that's factually incorrect in this post, please correct it and provide substantiation.

 

[The Chairman]

But they are also, and have been for as long as I've been diving, also the de facto standard for recreational diving.

Are they? Check the next non-training boat you are on. My bet is that you may not find any.

 

[Walter]

Define "non-training boat."

 

[Thalassamania]

I couldn't tell you when. I heard it from Wayne Mitchell, Chad Barbay and one other at NAUI HQ. They were most emphatic about it being done without changing depth due to a number of mishaps. Perhaps you should ask them about it as it pertains to OW students.

Wayne, Chad and some other unknown ... none of whom (except perhaps the unknown person) are expert in diving accidents. To the best of my knowledge BB ascent exercises have not been a training fatality issue since the mid 1970s, and then they were, IPOF, a PADI, rather than a NAUI issue.

so if they book a trip to Belize, and their PDC craps out on the first day of diving it leaves them in a pickle....Either buy another computer, or quit diving for the rest of their vacation because they have no idea how to use tables. I'd rather spend the 30 minutes discussing it in class, and avoid the situation completely.

We discuss it in class and even show them how to go from a computer onto a set of tables (since you can't go from one computer to another).

The last liveaboard I was on not only had a spare PDC, they had a few to choose from. However, they did not have tables.

If they are that poorly prepared, I worry about that boat and the adequacy of their other contingency planning.

Are they? Check the next non-training boat you are on. My bet is that you may not find any.

So if a computer craps out their only alternative is to sit out 24 hours and then start again with a working computer? They could do with some antediluvian (now isn't that nicer than Luddite?) training.

 

[The Chairman]

Define "non-training boat."

No classes on it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Are they? Check the next non-training boat you are on. My bet is that you may not find any.

... a more relevent check would be to ask the divers on board how many of them used tables in their OW training.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Kingpatzer]

Nice non-sequitur ... you continue to demonstrate that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Explain to me how saying that tables are essential in some areas and not in others demonstrates ignorance on my part?

 

[Kingpatzer]

... a more relevent check would be to ask the divers on board how many of them used tables in their OW training.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I don't believe it's only been a year or so that agencies have dropped the requirements. So for at least 2 of trips I've done either they were not trained through a major agency, or they were trained on tables.