The Philosophy of Diver Training

[tomfcrist]

When did NAUI remove buddy breathing as a requirement due to safety concerns. AFAIK it's still part of their requirements for DM candidates. I checked my S&P last evening and sure enough, it's still in there.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Actually it is still a requirement for OW divers as well..Just not while ascending. It is to be done in the bottom, stationary.

 

[The Chairman]

The last liveaboard I was on not only had a spare PDC, they had a few to choose from. However, they did not have tables. If a student doesn't want to learn how to use tables, I am not going to force them to. If they have to use tables in order to dive, I am certain their learning curve will be short and they will figure it out. So far, I have not had one student complain about it and no one has died or even gotten bent.

 

[Walter]

They aren't needed until later (if then).

The same can be said for computers. Either one works. Neither is a necessity if you have the other. I don't object to teaching computers, why do you object to teaching tables?

Whether you AGREE that the risks are there or not, the REASONS they were eliminated were due to safety concerns.

You are mistaken.

Your posse doesn't seem to agree with you here.

I don't seem to have a posse, Pete. In fact, I don't need one. Why would you use such a term?

Even you admitted that "off the knees" was a relatively new concept. That's all about buoyancy and trim.

It is. It makes learning buoyancy and trim easier. It does not make it possible to teach it. It was possible before, I know because lots of us taught it. A new technique for teaching a concept does not mean the concept was never taught before the technique was introduced.

I took some poetic license there. It was written tongue in cheek. Lighten up a bit. Either way, they STILL opposed progress.

I know you were using poetic license. I also know you were using it to show a connection that does not exist.

Again, your posse disagrees with you on this.

Again, there is no posse. Please stop the name calling. To whom do you refer?

I am sure you've seen it quite often in many of these discussion.

I don't remember seeing it in this thread. It's over 1000 posts now, I could have missed it or forgotten its use. I agree it's a useless phrase.

Why are you so anal about everything else BUT this? It makes no sense.

I'm sorry you're having trouble understanding what I'm trying to communicate. It probably is my fault for not being clearer. I will try to do better.

Neither NAUI nor PADI require buddy breathing in their entry level classes. On that we all agree.

Beyond that, we've heard from PADI instructors (I freely admit I have not seen the new PADI standards) that PADI is now forbidding buddy breathing in its entry level class.

NAUI has not taken this step. NAUI still allows instructors to teach buddy breathing in its entry level class.

You tell us (I've not seen updated NAUI standards either) and I believe you that NAUI does place restrictions on how buddy breathing may be taught. I seem to remember you first saying it can't be taught while ascending and then later that it can't be taught if depth was changing, so I'm not sure of the exact restrictions, but the restrictions do exist.

Wayne stated that PADI does not allow instructors to teach buddy breathing in its entry level class, but that NAUI does. That is all true. You've objected to his statement because it was not complete. OK, I agree it was not complete. Pete, we all make decisions in every statement we make about how much information to include. Does this part really pertain to the point or is it not essential to this point? We make these decisions because we would all bedrowning in too much information if we didn't. Wayne decided that the restrictions NAUI places on teaching buddy breathing, while extremely important when actually teaching this skill, did not pertain to the discussion under way. I agree with him. You disagree. To correct what you saw as a misleading statement, you pointed out NAUI's restrictions on teaching the skill. Doesn't that make the point moot?

We see the repercussions of the "data".

There is no data. You're talking through your hat.

It's anything BUT accepted outside of you four.

Which four?

Just to remind ourselves about the pouint under discussion:

there seems to be general agreement that once-upon-a-time diving agencies had standards that actually did result in the training of new divers who were capable of diving in rather a wider set of conditions than new divers are today

Is BDSC one of the four?

After I was certified back in 91, my buddy who took the class with me and I went to the Florida springs within two weeks and started diving on our own and I never gave diving without an instructor a second thought. We both felt totally prepared to dive on our own. Now we were rookies at diving no doubt and had a lot to learn about refining the skills we had learned in class but I never felt as if I wasn't prepared.

I think it's sad that so many people who are getting certified don't feel comfortable diving on their own and won't go without a DM or instructor with them.

Is Diver0001 one of the four?

Years ago there weren't enough instructors and DM's to fill a proberbial thimble so divers *had* to be trained to a different standard in terms of independence.

These days divers have choices. They can become as independent as they wish, if they have the money and time to put into the necessary training. However, the baseline for getting into the sport is not as high as it might have been in the past.

Is Chris12day one of the four?

I think the disconnect comes when a resort diver is allowed to go back, to back to back while a resort and obtain their OW, AOW, and Nitrox. Then they believe they are capable of doing anything....cave....cold water...etc. "Look at all my badges".....But have dived ionly n 75 F water.

I believe that I need additional training beside my own OW, AOW, and Nitrox classes. I will begin my book work next week for my Rescue Diver. Why? Because I believe I need to be completely independent of others. I can not rely on an insta-buddy who has no ideal how much air they have or how much air they need to safely complete their dive.

Is Web Monkey one of the four?

Hmm. I started diving in 2001.

Although my class didn't include carrying an iron cauldron of hot coals or walking on a rice-paper mat leaving no trace of my passage, or snatching a pebble from anybody's hand, it did take close to 14 weeks (1 class/week) because after the first 8 weeks, I still wasn't really ready for the Open Water dives.

I learned all sorts of things that are supposed to be in every OW class but are just touched on, like proper weighting, how to get back on a boat without getting hurt, how to stay horizontal, not kick up the bottom, not touch anything, how to stay with my buddy and how to not run out of gas.

Now 9 years later, I'm teaching the same class. It's not rocket science, and it's actually almost all covered right in the standard OW curriculum. The trick is that you need to time to discuss it, demonstrate the skills, go over concepts, let the students practice the skills until they're easily repeatable and not push anybody out the door until both the student and instructor are happy.

In fact, not only isn't this "walking up hill both ways" it's actually much easier and less stressful for both, than the faster version that produces divers that need a DM.

Terry

Is TMHeimer one of the four?

I agree with you on every point. Especially about rescue skills (at least basic ones) being in the OW course. I, too was a "confident" newbie with my newbie buddy. I learned in Rescue that I shouldn't have been so confident back then without those skills. And, as you say, it's OK to be a little nervous about , say, your first dives 60 feet or below. I was a bit nervous, and glad to be with a DM or experienced diver then.

Oh, we're already over four. Who are those four?

you don't comment on the validity of what I said, only harping on an obvious mistake I made.

Like I said, it's a long thread. I remember you said something about getting your backup. I don't remember the details.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Let's, for the sake of this "discussion" presume that the padi bashers are correct in believing PADI is a hopelessly dangerous organization which must be banned from teaching scuba since they're trying to kill divers with their substandard training.

Precisely where are people to go for dive training then?

Around here the non-PADI shops can be counted on two fingers, and they are both far too small and with too few instructors to support the demand for divers. There are virtually no non-PADI shops in large segments of the country. If you go to the Caribbean it's rather difficult to find a non-PADI shop in many locations.

It is abundantly clear that no other agency has the presence, staff or perhaps even desire to meet the demand.

Now, aside from suggesting that the non-divers should either just not take up the sport, or stand in line for years and pay through the nose for their courses, is there any thought as to what those who want to dive should do if the wish is granted for PADI to stop teaching?

Go read the tech forum here and see how many of the "well trained" divers started out going through PADI. It's a fairly substantial number. How many of GUE's fundies students start with PADI? Where are the entry level divers going to come from?

Or can SEI, GUE and what ever other acceptable agencies there are magically turn out 160,000 instructors over night. Or is the idea really that some folks just don't want there to be as many divers? In which case how do you avoid charges of elitism?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The last liveaboard I was on not only had a spare PDC, they had a few to choose from. However, they did not have tables. If a student doesn't want to learn how to use tables, I am not going to force them to. If they have to use tables in order to dive, I am certain their learning curve will be short and they will figure it out. So far, I have not had one student complain about it and no one has died or even gotten bent.

Tables vary from agency to agency, and if you're going to be relying on them as a backup it helps to bring your own, rather than relying on tables that may or may not be on a boat ... or that you may or may not be familiar with using. Same goes for a backup computer ... since they don't all work the same.

In a classroom setting, either can be learned quickly and efficiently with some guidance by a knowledgeable instructor. Without that guidance ... even with an instruction manual in the case of most PDCs ... learning either sufficient to use them for dive planning can prove to be a frustrating and confusing experience.

If you're just diving locally, or in a location where there are lots of dive shops and dive professionals available to help you out, it's no big whoop either way. However, if you're on a liveaboard in the middle of nowhere and your PDC craps out on you, you would be well-advised to have brought a backup dive planning tool on the trip that you are familiar with.

This is why learning the concepts are more important than learning any one method over another ... because it not only helps you understand the proper use of the tools you've chosen, but also WHY it's important to be prepared in advance of needing them to salvage your vacation if your primary method of dive planning and tracking craps out on ya ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Let's, for the sake of this "discussion" presume that the padi bashers are correct in believing PADI is a hopelessly dangerous organization which must be banned from teaching scuba since they're trying to kill divers with their substandard training.

Why make that assumption? I haven't seen anyone other than you suggest it.

King ... honestly, why are you persisting in flogging the bloody meat that once resembled a horse?

You have done far worse than DCBC to keep this thread down in the sewer. Yet I notice that Pete has no objections to your peculiar brand of trollery here. In fact, I notice he THANKED you for it.

Why is that? What does that sort of commentary add to the conversation, except to keep the flames well-fanned?

What say we drop the nonsense and try using rational language for a change?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Go read the tech forum here and see how many of the "well trained" divers started out going through PADI. It's a fairly substantial number. How many of GUE's fundies students start with PADI? Where are the entry level divers going to come from?

I have a more relevent exercise along those lines ... go to the tech forum and ask how many of those same "well trained" divers are using tables to plan their tech dives.

It'd be interesting to see how many ... even among those who, like myself, own computers that are far more complex and expensive than anything most recreational divers will ever use ... still use tables to plan and execute their dives.

Then let's come back here and discuss, from that perspective, why learning tables is an obsolete skill ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Chairman]

Then let's come back here and discuss, from that perspective, why learning tables is an obsolete skill ... (Grateful Diver)

Obsolete? No. Indeed, they are the defacto standard for tech diving at least for now. Are they essential for OW? No.

A better experiment: count the number of tables on the next non-training dive boat you are on. How does that shake out?

 

[Kingpatzer]

I don't need to know how to land a jump to ride my Harley Sport around town on a sunny day. But if I want to take up off-road racing, I better learn before I get to the track.

Tables are the same way. In some applications they are (currently) essential. That doesn't mean they are necessary for everyone.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Obsolete? No. Indeed, they are the defacto standard for tech diving at least for now. Are they essential for OW? No.

Law of Primacy, Pete ... as you've aleady noted, diver education is a continuum. You build upon what you learn in your last class.

Are tables essential for OW? No ... I agree with that. But they are also, and have been for as long as I've been diving, also the de facto standard for recreational diving. There are good reasons for that, and the evolution of PDCs hasn't (yet) negated those reasons.

Certainly PDCs offer some advantages, and their use should be encouraged. I'd even agree that they should be taught. But until you can convince the PDC manufacturers to come up with some sort of standards for computing and displaying dive planning data, teaching and relying on PDCs comes with its own set of drawbacks ... which I'm sure you are well aware.

Relying on technology without understanding the fundamental concepts of what that technology is doing for you is a crap shoot.

Personally, I'd prefer to produce better prepared students. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with agency, technology, fear of technology, or lack of fun. It has everything to do with preparing my students for diving in a world where things can go wrong and you can't rely on somebody else to help you make it right.

Which IS the reality of scuba diving, howsoever you, King, or anyone else tries to deflect the discussion in some other direction ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)