The Philosophy of Diver Training

[MXGratefulDiver]

Explain to me how saying that tables are essential in some areas and not in others demonstrates ignorance on my part?

Your motorcycle analogy demonstrates ignorance of the topic ... since it has no applicable significance to what's being discussed.

Tables are not essential in ANY areas ... not even in tech diving. There are plenty of dive computers out there that are completely capable of telling you exactly when to ascend, how fast to ascend, when to stop, and when to proceed. I happen to own one that will do all those things.

Whether it's a good idea or not to rely on them is another discussion ... but some people do, and successfully.

The point you continue to miss ... and the real clue that you do not understand the issue ... is the one I have stated repeatedly. Tables or PDC doesn't matter ... they're simply the tool you use to plan and execute the dive. What matters is an understanding of what they are telling you, and why it matters.

That knowledge is not in any way analogous to riding a Harley on the street vs on the track ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Walter]

No classes on it.

Those are pretty rare. So rare that it's a non-issue.

 

[Thalassamania]

...

The point you continue to miss ... and the real clue that you do not understand the issue ... is the one I have stated repeatedly. Tables or PDC doesn't matter ... they're simply the tool you use to plan and execute the dive. What matters is an understanding of what they are telling you, and why it matters.

That knowledge is not in any way analogous to riding a Harley on the street vs on the track ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Hear! Hear!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't believe it's only been a year or so that agencies have dropped the requirements. So for at least 2 of trips I've done either they were not trained through a major agency, or they were trained on tables.

SSI has been teaching PDC only since at least 2004 ... perhaps even earlier than that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Crush]

Here is an attempt to re-direct the discussion. I will try one bite-sized piece so that the debate can remain focused.

Question:

1. Is practicing a blind swim (i.e., with your mask removed) underwater while being led by your buddy an essential skill?
2. Should it be attempted in the pool, in open water, or never?
3. At what level of training should this skill be required?
4. Why?
5. What agencies teach this skill?

My opinion:

1. Yes;
2. At least in the pool, possibly in open water depending upon the skill and comfort of the diver.
3. Basic OW;
4. Perhaps this skill is more critical in cold water diving than in warm. In cold water it is very hard to keep your eyes open without a mask, so in the case of a mask mishap you will be for all intents "blind." Your buddy would have to retrieve your lost mask, replace it with his spare, or help you surface. In all cases, relying upon someone's assistance while not panicking is essential, lest you go rocketing to the surface or sink.
5. Not sure.

 

[Hawkwood]

Here is an attempt to re-direct the discussion. I will try one bite-sized piece so that the debate can remain focused.

Question:

1. Is practicing a blind swim (i.e., with your mask removed) underwater while being led by your buddy an essential skill?
2. Should it be attempted in the pool, in open water, or never?
3. At what level of training should this skill be required?
4. Why?
5. What agencies teach this skill?

My opinion:

1. Yes;
2. At least in the pool, possibly in open water depending upon the skill and comfort of the diver.
3. Basic OW;
4. Perhaps this skill is more critical in cold water diving than in warm. In cold water it is very hard to keep your eyes open without a mask, so in the case of a mask mishap you will be for all intents "blind." Your buddy would have to retrieve your lost mask, replace it with his spare, or help you surface. In all cases, relying upon someone's assistance while not panicking is essential, lest you go rocketing to the surface or sink.
5. Not sure.

From the PADI Instructor Manual (2010):

Dive 4 Performance Requirements (Confined Water)
Underwater:
1. Swim without a mask for at least 15 metres/50 feet, then replace and clear the mask.​

When we have the students do it, one buddy leads the buddy who is not wearing the mask.

I think I've covered some of your questions.

 

[DCBC]

Here is an attempt to re-direct the discussion. I will try one bite-sized piece so that the debate can remain focused.

Question:

1. Is practicing a blind swim (i.e., with your mask removed) underwater while being led by your buddy an essential skill?
2. Should it be attempted in the pool, in open water, or never?
3. At what level of training should this skill be required?
4. Why?
5. What agencies teach this skill?

My opinion:

1. Yes;
2. In the pool and open water;
3. Basic OW;
4. Prepares the diver to deal with a loss of their mask and helps mitigate panic in such an eventuality in unexpected circumstances.
5. I believe that PADI still requires this? Although it is not required by some other agencies, they allow/encourage instructors to teach past the minimum standards. I include sharing air and buddy-breathing D/R, with and without a mask in the pool and during the OW check-out.

[/QUOTE]

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Thank you ... it would be REAL NICE if we could get past all the inflammatory BS and get the discussion back on track.

Here is an attempt to re-direct the discussion. I will try one bite-sized piece so that the debate can remain focused.

Question:

1. Is practicing a blind swim (i.e., with your mask removed) underwater while being led by your buddy an essential skill?
2. Should it be attempted in the pool, in open water, or never?
3. At what level of training should this skill be required?
4. Why?
5. What agencies teach this skill?

My opinion:

1. Essential? No. Desireable ... depends on the circumstances. You first have to ask yourself what is the goal of the exercise. To my concern it has more to do with in-water comfort than anything else ... because the reality is that unless you're in a total silt-out, or caught in a cave or night-dive without a light, there is no such thing in the real world as a blind swim. Opening your eyes underwater can still provide you with enough sight to make your way safely to the surface. The real problem is what not having a mask on does to your head ... because for most people once that water hits your nose it makes you feel like your regulator is leaking water, and you have to overcome a mental reaction that can easily lead to panic. The whole point of any mask-off exercise is to learn how to overcome that reaction, and to deal with the task-loading that no-mask swimming brings to the diver who is attempting an orderly ascent. It also does ingrain that there's way more to being a dive buddy than just jumping into the water together ... performing such exercises provides a real-world understanding of why you dive with a buddy and why maintaining both proximity and awareness of each other is so important.
   
2. Again, it depends on circumstances. For people who dive in cold water, the pool experience simply isn't enough. I've had many students be able to perform mask-off exercises in a pool just fine ... and completely lose it as soon as they attempt it in OW, where the water temps can be 40 degrees colder than the pool. The colder the water, the more it messes with your brain and the more important it becomes to "rewire" your senses to be able to deal with it.
   
3. Again, it depends ... this time on the student. People who are able to do the standard flood and clear exercises without undue discomfort in OW won't really benefit all that much from the mask-off lead-follow exercise. It'll be a challenge ... some even think it's fun ... but it's not primarily for their benefit, because they're already pretty well-adapted. It's the ones who struggle with mask clear who will benefit more from it ... because after learning this exercise, the mask-clear stuff will seem so easy by comparison. It needs to be done in stages, and I'll often start them standing chest-deep in water and just have them put their (maskless) face in the water and breathe a while ... till they get comfortable doing that. By that point, the "rewiring" process is well underway and they're able to move a bit deeper and try real mask-off exercises without undue stress or safety concerns. Once again, it boils down to the role of the instructor. Are we there to teach? And if so, then doesn't it make sense to teach to the individual rather than to some idealized "model"? Instructors should be able to make that sort of judgment call based on their knowledge of student behavior, class goals, and what conditions the student is likely going to be encountering once they've received their OW card. THAT is my idea of training a self-sufficient diver.
   
4. See above ... why is a very good question, and is part of my initial response to your questions.
   
5. Agencies shouldn't matter. If the instructor is competent they can properly train a diver regardless of what agency they're working for. But in order to do so the instructor needs to be able to do more than regurgitate standards and teach to a mimimum requirement. You can do that with any agency I'm aware of.

 

[Thalassamania]

1. Yes.
2. In the pool and open water.
3. Entry level OW.
4. Helps the diver to deal with a flooded mask, loss of mask, etc. We do a lot of no-mask work including skin diving doff and don, scuba doff and don, buddy breathing doff and don as well as fairly long no-mask swims.
5. Who cares?

 

[TechBlue]

From the PADI Instructor Manual (2010):

Dive 4 Performance Requirements (Confined Water)
Underwater:
1. Swim without a mask for at least 15 metres/50 feet, then replace and clear the mask.​

When we have the students do it, one buddy leads the buddy who is not wearing the mask.

I think I've covered some of your questions.

Many "experienced" divers still have problems with mask clearing and especially removal, I still remember a check out dive in the DR my "buddy" was an AOW diver with a decent amount of dives, the checkout was about as basic as you can get, fin pivot, flood and clear mask. She flooded her mask and took off straight to the surface.

Best part was I followed her up got her squared away and dropped back down and everybody had disappeared. Nice professional operation.