The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Jim Lapenta]

Here is an attempt to re-direct the discussion. I will try one bite-sized piece so that the debate can remain focused.

Question:

1. Is practicing a blind swim (i.e., with your mask removed) underwater while being led by your buddy an essential skill?
2. Should it be attempted in the pool, in open water, or never?
3. At what level of training should this skill be required?
4. Why?
5. What agencies teach this skill?

My opinion:

1. Yes;
2. At least in the pool, possibly in open water depending upon the skill and comfort of the diver.
3. Basic OW;
4. Perhaps this skill is more critical in cold water diving than in warm. In cold water it is very hard to keep your eyes open without a mask, so in the case of a mask mishap you will be for all intents "blind." Your buddy would have to retrieve your lost mask, replace it with his spare, or help you surface. In all cases, relying upon someone's assistance while not panicking is essential, lest you go rocketing to the surface or sink.
5. Not sure.

Yes
Yes to both
Basic OW
In addition to diver comfort I feel it reinforces proper buddy skills and positioning. In the pool I require it while air sharing and while buddy breathing. I first will demo it with one diver and then have the buddy pairs do it. Each diver gets a turn at each role. In my AOW class they do a 100 ft horizontal air share no mask swim at 25-30 feet and ascent to the surface.
SEI

 

[TSandM]

No classes on it.

Those are pretty rare. So rare that it's a non-issue.
__________________

That's an interesting insight into Florida boats. In our area, it's rare to find any classes on boats, except an occasional boat or deep specialty class. OW classes shore dive.

 

[tomfcrist]

We discuss it in class and even show them how to go from a computer onto a set of tables (since you can't go from one computer to another).

In that case you must teach how to properly use the tables. Otherwise it won't make much sense.

 

[Thalassamania]

Of course.

 

[TechBlue]

This is a thread describing a very near miss for a DM candidate who quite obviously was diving beyond his limitations. Luckily, on the surface, all the right people were there or this could well have been a fatality.

This clearly shows that the fast track modular approach has some serious retention and training issues that would not have happened if the training had been conducted over a longer period of time. How can you allow a DM candidate to start the program with a minimum of 20 dives under their belt? Sounds like nobody was having fun here! It wasn't that long ago that you needed 25 dives before you could take AOW??

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...-real-rescue-course-very-close-near-miss.html

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

How can you allow a DM candidate to start the program with a minimum of 20 dives under their belt?

Sales! It really is that simple. Why stop at OW or AOW when you can pump another $1000 worth of classes out of somebody? I know of one local shop that routinely sells DM classes straight out of OW ... everybody's a "natural". They crank out those 60-dive DM's like sausages, and most of them can't dive worth a damn.

Sounds like nobody was having fun here!

I'm sure CLASS was fun ... it's when they take that shiny new DM card out into the real world that the reality sets in.

It wasn't that long ago that you needed 25 dives before you could take AOW??

Some instructors and agencies still require it. I used to ... but decided over time that a more realistic criteria would be an in-water evaluation of the diver. If they look comfortable with their basic OW skills, I don't care how many dives they have. If not, I recommend they get more bottom time ... they'll get more out of the class that way.

And before anybody goes down that path again ... there's nothing preventing people from working hard on their skills and having fun doing it. Anybody who believes otherwise hasn't been reading all the rave reviews that the DIR Fundamentals students have been posting on ScubaBoard all these years. What suddenly turns so many of these folks into evangelists? As previously noted ... all of them took their OW with some other agency. So why are they suddenly so gung-ho over what they had to work so hard to learn in DIR-F?

Could it possibly be because once they learn some decent skills they suddenly realize how much more FUN it is to go diving?

Hmmmm ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Guy Alcala]

An interesting question along those lines - which also actually pertains to the discussion - might be which of the "started PADI - then took Fundies" (or similar) divers did so because they were frustrated by the big "gaps" in skills and training they felt were left post PADI OW (and AOW and Peak Performance Buoyancy and Deep and Nitrox in my case).

Well, count me in that group

<snip>
Henrik

+1, SSI OW/AOW/Nitrox, PADI Alt./Rescue/Nav. for me (looks like I'll be taking Fundies in June instread of April).

Guy

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

+1, SSI OW/AOW/Nitrox, PADI Alt./Rescue/Nav. for me (looks like I'll be taking Fundies in June instread of April).

Guy

None of those classes are intended to teach you what Fundamentals does ... but properly taught they can provide a real solid foundation of skills and knowledge.

I taught a pretty thorough AOW class ... and because of my background I emphasized things that are pretty compatible with the DIR mindset. But I did not attempt to teach DIR skills in that class. At best, I prepared my students to begin thinking along those lines ... for those who later decided that DIR is right for them (it's definitely NOT right for everyone).

One of the best instructors I ever worked with taught for three different agencies ... PADI among them. He's far, far from DIR ... but he's also an incredibly thorough, energetic, and creative instructor. His classes are amazingly fun ... and he consistently turns out well-trained divers. Somehow, he manages to do it all within the tenets of the agency rules. It helps that he's been teaching for more than three decades, and brings an incredibly diverse background to the table. But mostly it's just his belief that well-trained divers have more fun that motivates him to find ways to "fill in the gaps" in his classes.

I learned a lot from that guy ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Guy Alcala]

SSI has been teaching PDC only since at least 2004 ... perhaps even earlier than that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Don't know about that, Bob. My student pack (Jan. 2007) came with the table, and we learned how to use them.

I still carry mine in a thigh pocket on every dive, have memorized the first dive NDLs for each depth (actually I normally carry the Nitrox table which has the EADs for each mix, which I've also memorized), often write down the adjusted NDLs (from my computer) on my wrist slate before a dive, and still calculate and log the Groups/RNTs from the table at the end of the day if not between each dive. In addition to the computer and my brain I also wear/carry a watch, an SPG and a mechanical depth gauge for when the computer craps out, which has happened to me on two occasions (both Suunto Gekko rentals with bad depth sensors). Neither failure stopped me from finishing the dive as planned, or continuing to dive for the rest of the day.

Guy

 

[Guy Alcala]

None of those classes are intended to teach you what Fundamentals does ... but properly taught they can provide a real solid foundation of skills and knowledge.

<snip>

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

That was the problem, mine didn't (well, rescue was useful, Alt and Nitrox can easily be on-line and IMO given well-trained OW divers there really shouldn't be any need for a cert for either). I was just agreeing with Hendryk that I'm looking at Fundies because my big-agency classes left me feeling short-changed. I want the maximum, not the minimum. I want it to be hard enough to benefit from an instructor; I can learn 'easy' by myself. As we've all agreed, simple diving isn't rocket science.

Guy