The Philosophy of Diver Training

[MXGratefulDiver]

by definition a luddite is opposed to advancements in technology.....not true for me.
I love PDC's and use them frequently, however i understand the need for understanding tables and the theorys that they are based on.

So do I ... in fact, I find it ironic as hell that Pete is using such labels against people when, in fact, most of those people teach and dive using the same type of equipment he does.

Hey. I came into this thread, because it was obvious that one agency was being bashed.

OK ... I get that part. But how does it help your cause to then use the very same tactics you're protesting in others?

Think about it. It's not what you say that I find objectionable, Pete ... it's the deprecating and condescending way you've been saying it.

I don't care HOW others train,

But obviously you DO! Go back and read some of your comments ... apparently you care VERY MUCH how others train ... you accuse us of all sorts of things, and assign labels that have nothing to do with the training, and everything to do with what you perceive to be our motivations behind how we train.

as long as they allow me to train my divers as I wish.

Who's stopping you? Or even attempting to?

I haven't called anyone's training unsafe or incomplete.

Perhaps not ... but calling people Luddites and POV Warriors doesn't make your point any more convincing. And implying that they suck the fun out of their classes ... particularly at the same time that you're objecting to any implications they make about yours ... makes you no better than them. And the "posse" comment was, for me, the last straw. I can't much listen to anything you have to say anymore because it seems to me you're just here to pick a fight with somebody.

That goes against everything you have ever told everybody else on this board is the proper behavior when dealing with people they disagree with.

I don't know that I have called Walter, Thal, Bob or even Tech Blue a Luddite... but I have shown a number of Luddite POVs that crop up.

Actually you haven't ... you've simply found a convenient label for anything that doesn't agree with your particular philosophy ... even when perfectly valid reasons for that disagreement were offered. In my case, you've applied labels in lieu of addressing ANY of the actual content I posted describing why I disagreed with you.

By definition there are no Luddites on ScubaBoard. How could there be? I mean ... think about what this board is, and how anybody manages to post here.

If they choose to take that as a slam: so be it.

I took it in the way that I am certain you meant it to be taken.

They have no compunction telling us that some classes are incomplete and dangerous so I find the umbrage a bit disingenuous.

I have said no such things ... what I have said is what I do and why I do it ... as well as why some of the things you have suggested would not work for the particular environment in which I teach. At no time have I slammed your teaching methods, called you names, or labelled you as a member of a "posse".

You, on the other hand, have done all those things. And you've used those tactics not just against the people who's behavior you take exception to, but against anyone who's PoV disagrees with your own.

Yeah Pete, I'm more than a bit put off by some of your posts ... because myself and a whole bunch of other people who don't necessarily see things your way don't deserve it.

However, when I see changes maligned as being something they are not, it simply makes my blood boil! Buddy breathing is a good example here. A few instructors have characterized the loss of buddy breathing as being a part of a plot to decrease standards rather than what it really was: a deprecated skill set that has safety issues. After all, this is a "Philosophy of Diver Training" and I think it would be better couched as a need for risk reduction rather than mere simplification.

So cool your blood and answer the question I posed to you earlier ...

When did NAUI remove buddy breathing as a requirement due to safety concerns. AFAIK it's still part of their requirements for DM candidates. I checked my S&P last evening and sure enough, it's still in there.

So if it's a safety concern, as you suggest, why is it still a requirement at any level?

Maybe others can fill in their agency's philosophy.

Wouldn't it be nice to stop all this name-calling, labeling, insulting and deprecating BS and get back to the topic?

Pete, we've known each other a long time ... spent a week in Bonaire together. I enjoy your company and hope to dive with you again sometime. I would LIKE to discuss our differences constructively. But I can't when you choose to use such tactics. They don't do a damn thing for either the conversation or for your credibility.

You're the one who keeps telling others to address the content of someone's post, and not their person. And yet you're violating your own standards. If it were anybody else posting like that, you'd be in the back room with your staff talking about whether or not they deserved a vacation.

Leadership, Pete ... it's more than simply telling other people what to do ... please consider setting a better example ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Should we start a poll?

Hmmm ... according to the one at the top of this thread, more than 96% of those who responded agreed with the premise of the OP.

I think you and Wayne need to get a room somewhere and settle your differences. If we could eliminate about 60% of the posts in this thread it'd be a topic worthy of continued discussion ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Chairman]

When did NAUI remove buddy breathing as a requirement due to safety concerns. AFAIK it's still part of their requirements for DM candidates. I checked my S&P last evening and sure enough, it's still in there.

I couldn't tell you when. I heard it from Wayne Mitchell, Chad Barbay and one other at NAUI HQ. They were most emphatic about it being done without changing depth due to a number of mishaps. Perhaps you should ask them about it as it pertains to OW students.

 

[The Chairman]

Hmmm ... according to the one at the top of this thread, more than 96% of those who responded agreed with the premise of the OP.

I agree with the poll. Too bad it devolved into merely PADI bashing which provoked a few of us into defending them.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I agree with the poll. Too bad it devolved into merely PADI bashing which provoked a few of us into defending them.

I agree ... but that horse is dead. Let's move on ... please!

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I couldn't tell you when. I heard it from Wayne Mitchell, Chad Barbay and one other at NAUI HQ. They were most emphatic about it being done without changing depth due to a number of mishaps. Perhaps you should ask them about it as it pertains to OW students.

Most of us don't have the advantage of proximity to NAUI HQ or personal interaction with the people who make these decisions.

It is not, and hasn't been for as long as I've had the standards, part of the NAUI OW curriculum. However, it is and continues to be a requirement for DM training ... at least according to the published S&P ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

From three people within NAUI's HQ.

I see, three people at NAUI HQ say buddy breathing is unsafe and you accept this as proof of fact. Well that's up to you; but many of us wouldn't accept this only based upon hearsay. Personally, I certainly wouldn't be repeating this as "fact" amongst my peers unless I had more to go on, but thanks for qualifying your references.

My students seem to want to avoid your type of attitude and instruction and I frankly can't blame them.

I think it more likely that your students don't know me (or any instructor who teaches a more extensive diving program). They don't know what my course entails, nor would many of them know the importance of what I teach. I think this is just one more of your "special comments" that you are becoming known for.

If you must add something for a certain environment (like altitude tables), then it is not only allowed, but required. However, if you violate the standards of any agency, you will be CENSURED just like PADI did with you.

I was censured FOR teaching altitude tables. Perhaps you should reread what you wrote and see how you are coming across.

"It is often better to be thought of as a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." Abraham Lincoln

 

[DCBC]

I think you and Wayne need to get a room somewhere and settle your differences. If we could eliminate about 60% of the posts in this thread it'd be a topic worthy of continued discussion ...

There's nothing I would like better. I do agree, we should continue the discussion. The essence of people's postings tend to get lost in the volume of off-topic posts. Lets try again...

 

[The Chairman]

I see, three people at NAUI HQ say buddy breathing is unsafe and you accept this as proof of fact. Well that's up to you; but many of us wouldn't accept this only based upon hearsay. Personally, I certainly wouldn't be repeating this as "fact" amongst my peers unless I had more to go on, but thanks for qualifying your references.

This was the reason WHY they don't allow us to ascend and teach this skill. They said "no" and I accept their "no".

I think it more likely that your students don't know me (or any instructor who teaches a more extensive diving program). They don't know what my course entails, nor would many of them know the importance of what I teach. I think this is just one more of your "special comments" that you are becoming known for.

Just as your students don't know how FUN learning Scuba can be. I am not ashamed of any of my students and how they perform.

"It is often better to be thought of as a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." Abraham Lincoln

You should listen to your own advice. Stop the bashing!

 

[tomfcrist]

Theory is important. Both tables and PDCs are based on the same theory and not on each other.

I like to teach with the tools my students will be using. If they give me an inkling that they want to learn tables, then they learn tables. I have had that happen with some NitrOx classes, but not often. Most of my students are comfortable with their PDCs and so am I.

so if they book a trip to Belize, and their PDC craps out on the first day of diving it leaves them in a pickle....Either buy another computer, or quit diving for the rest of their vacation because they have no idea how to use tables. I'd rather spend the 30 minutes discussing it in class, and avoid the situation completely.