The Philosophy of Diver Training

[MXGratefulDiver]

p.s. I'll also leave you to licking your eyebrows by yourself. Seems like customs have moved on some since the sixties

Any guy capable of licking his eyebrows is definitely gonna attract some babes ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Chairman]

I agree we need to teacfh the use of dive computers, but I don't understand your objection to tables.

They aren't needed until later (if then).

There are no excessive risks to properly taught buddy breathing. As you are so fond of saying - it aint rocket science. Pete, buddy breathing is easy.

Whether you AGREE that the risks are there or not, the REASONS they were eliminated were due to safety concerns.

I don't object to weight integrated BCs for those who like them.

Your posse doesn't seem to agree with you here.

It certainly doesn't make them new.

Even you admitted that "off the knees" was a relatively new concept. That's all about buoyancy and trim.

Close, but no banana. Ned Lud was probably not a real person, but no one knows for sure. The Luddites destroyed looms to protest losing jobs. They never complained about the dumbing down or safety of fabrics. This was an economic movement. People were worried about starving after losing their jobs. It was related to technology because automatic looms were eliminating jobs. It had nothing to do with a concern over quality. Luddites have nothing to do with the current discussion.

Dude... I took some poetic license there. It was written tongue in cheek. Lighten up a bit. Either way, they STILL opposed progress.

I don't believe you can make the case that anyone here has the opinion that anything new is bad. New things are often good. On the other hand, things aren't automatically good because they are new. I use a dive computer, I've been using one since the mid '80s when they were new. Today, they're old. Let's dump them in favor of a new method of keeping track of our nitrogen loading. Let's keep track of nitrogen loading psychically. It's new, it's gotta be better than the old method - computers. Right?

Again, your posse disagrees with you on this.

Dumbing down standards. I've seen the term.

I am sure you've seen it quite often in many of these discussion.

If he were teaching buddy breathing in a NAUI class, I would agree. He's not. He's making a valid point about differences in standards between two agencies. That's a different kettle of fish.

Why are you so anal about everything else BUT this? It makes no sense.

When? How? I'm sorry to hear this. I liked Wayne.

I saw him two days prior to his passing. I asked him how he was (he looked bad) and he told me he was "Still kicking". I said something like he was too ornery to die and the next thing I know, he was gone. Wow. He was the course director for my IDC.

Let's see the data.

We see the repercussions of the "data".

It has been in this thread. I suggest you read the thread again.

It's anything BUT accepted outside of you four.

Pete, Thalassamania didn't say that, TechBlue did. Who is putting words into whose mouth?

You are right. It was a miss copy on my part: but somehow you don't comment on the validity of what I said, only harping on an obvious mistake I made. I find that rather disturbing as if all you want to do is to show how wrong I am rather than deal with the merits of what I am saying.

 

[tomfcrist]

Another conversation about what should and shouldn't be taught in a dive class????....Not on scubaboard! That's just crazy!

All jokes aside, I really wish all agencies would allow instructors to structure their own course as long as it meets the minimum agency standards. There is a reason they call us instructors not evaluators.

As far as the tables issue, it needs to be recognized that not all divers will buy a PDC. And on top of that not too many tropical shops rent out PDC's to tourists. All divers should have s basic knowledge of tables, and be competent to use them independantly.

Concerning buddy breathing being dangerous during training, is it any less dangerous when you have to pull it off in real world situations? You have to prepare your students to deal with the problems that they will eventually face in the world of diving.

Ultimately I would love it if the industry got together and established no kidding minimum standards to be taught by ALL agencies, after which the individual agencies/instructors could add to but not take away from those minimums. Unfortunatly that would require federal/international regulation to a recreational sport. It ain't gonna happen, so I guess I'll just deal with ill prepared divers everywhere I instruct/DM for the rest of my life. Hey I knew that when I started this job.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Your posse doesn't seem to agree with you here.

What "posse" do you speak of? If my reasons for not agreeing with your position on the weight integrated BCDs don't sit well with you, how about you discuss the content of my objections, rather than finding another descriptive term for my person? I'm really getting tired of it.

Pete ... do you realize that you have used every single tactic you've identified as that of the POV Warrior? By the tone of your posts, you have become the very person you claim to object to!

I'd love to discuss this subject with you, but the constant insults and condescension are just a bit more than I care to deal with.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Another conversation about what should and shouldn't be taught in a dive class????....Not on scubaboard! That's just crazy!

All jokes aside, I really wish all agencies would allow instructors to structure their own course as long as it meets the minimum agency standards. There is a reason they call us instructors not evaluators.

As far as the tables issue, it needs to be recognized that not all divers will buy a PDC. And on top of that not too many tropical shops rent out PDC's to tourists. All divers should have s basic knowledge of tables, and be competent to use them independantly.

Concerning buddy breathing being dangerous during training, is it any less dangerous when you have to pull it off in real world situations? You have to prepare your students to deal with the problems that they will eventually face in the world of diving.

Ultimately I would love it if the industry got together and established no kidding minimum standards to be taught by ALL agencies, after which the individual agencies/instructors could add to but not take away from those minimums. Unfortunatly that would require federal/international regulation to a recreational sport. It ain't gonna happen, so I guess I'll just deal with ill prepared divers everywhere I instruct/DM for the rest of my life. Hey I knew that when I started this job.

Ah gee ... another Luddite.

Welcome to the posse, bro ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Crush]

Dear NetDoc,

Many of your posts seem to equate those who do not share your views with the technologically inept, those opposed to progress, and practitioners of training practices from pre-historic times. How do you respond to a new diver who believes that diving standards are too watered down? Or am I too new and inexperienced a diver (in your mind, since this would prove to be convenient) to have a valid opinion? Could it be that only you, personally, strike the ideal balance between experience and stagnation?

Just curious.

 

[Crush]

I thought so.

 

[TechBlue]

I can say it, because it's true. I don't teach tables to my OW students unless they ask. A PDC is quite superior for lots of reasons. But if you are a Luddite (afraid of technology), then you would not agree. Please show me where I indicated ANYTHING of the sort. That's just putting words in my mouth, and you do it in almost every post. Please stop.

A back up in your bag will not work for 24 hours after your last dive. HOWEVER, a backup on your person is available right now. I tend to dive with two PDCs on me. Partly because I like redundancy and quite often I am testing a new PDC on the market.

Here seems to be a remarkable issue... a distrust of the PDC seems tied to a distrust in modern teaching methods. The irony is that you are communicating on a PC and that computers crunched the numbers of the various algorithms to produce the tables you BLINDLY put your trust in. It's ironic... doncha think?

NetDoc's top ten reasons why a PDC beats the heck out of tables!

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Spoiler

10) Longer and more accurate memories that are downloadable for later analysis.

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9) Account for variable depths on the dive.

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8) Easier to carry and use.

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7) Can adjust conservatism.

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6) They never get narced.

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5) Easily adjustable for different Mixes.

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4) Alarms when you ascend too quickly.

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3) Alarms when you exceed your NDL.

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2) Alarms when you exceed your MOD



and finally...

Spoiler

1) They really piss off the Luddites while attracting the babes!

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Pete,

This particular luddite dives and trains on a number of rebreathers, (although I must admit I prefer MCCR's) in the States I owned and operated a computer and telephony business so I wouldn't say I do anything blindly regarding computers.

When I am in the water I do not have to rely on a computer to tell what my deco obligation is, or the pressure in my cylinder and how long it will be before I run out of gas. I run tables for every dive as part of my dive planning I also use redundant computers but I do not believe that I have seen one OW diver with redundant computers. Using tables is a pretty basic skill and I do no understand why you would dismiss them so easily as not being necessary for proper dive planning, I also agree that a PDC is a great advantage over running square profiles but new divers should at least have a grasp on how to use tables and carry them on all of their dives.

 

[TechBlue]

Flush? I suggest that they would do the same thing if their depth gauge, watch, or SPG went bad: they would try to replace it! However, finding a set of tables ON the dive boat might prove harder than you think. There is a good chance that they would have to figure this one out on their own!

FWIW, I always carry a spare PDC or two when I dive. I have loaned it out twice as people had forgotten theirs. FWIW #2, I also carry redundant regs, masks, can lights and other stuff so I don't have to miss dives. Heck, I carry two primaries as well as three back ups when I enter a cave. Then when someone's primary fails, we can ALL continue the dive. I love the department of redundancy department.

Ahem...

 

[The Chairman]

Ahem...

Ahem what? Where do I tell people to make a dive and then change (or add) PDCs? I didn't, I haven't and I wouldn't.