The "other" end of the DIR question

[Diver0001]

Since learning better buoyancy control, I've crawled even deeper into the "diving is fun" box. It's much easier to have fun (for me anyhow) when I don't have to struggle with or even really think about basic skills - it just happens

well......yes. Me too actually. I don't think any PADI diver/trainer would tell you otherwise ..... I think where the PADI philosophy and the DIR philosophy part ways is in the answer to the question of how much is enough to start with....

R..

 

[diverbrian]

I think these kinds of comments often have to do with a difference in point of view. PADI is admittedly the "diving is fun" organisation and as such the courses have a certain "tra-la-la" factor that GUE courses don't have. Also PADI divers are trained to minimum standards to get them started and the process of gaining experience happens in the water. Even when it comes to basic skills like buoyancy, much of the real learning happens after the course. In the PADI philosophy it's fine because, after all, diving is fun and they don't assume their OW students are going to be engaged in particularly risky activities right out of the gate.....

DIR on the other hand has it's roots in cave diving and tek training and therefore has inherited a bit of the paradigm that divers should be a kind of proficient that goes a little beyond "diving is fun" before they are certified. It's important, obviously, if you assume that the first thing someone is going to do out of the training is go dive in a cave.....

So when a GUE/DIR instructor says "PADI didn't teach you bouyancy" first of all, he means what he says, and secondly, he's right.....in a world viewed from his paradigm. Obviously from the "diving is fun" paradigm you were also taught bouyancy but you're looking at the world from a different perspective.

It's like two people; one wearing yellow sunglasses and the other wearning brown sunglasses. Both are looking at the same white ball but they can't agree on what colour it is.....

R..

I am not PADI or DIR, and I couldn't have said this better.

I also agree with Snowbear, but those kind of buoyancy control skills take time.

I figure when I certified, my bouyancy was decent most of the time, but I used my BC instead of my lungs a little too much and had problems "multi-tasking". I rapidly got better when better when I started taking pictures and my hands were filled with camera and strobe, LOL. But, I will never be to the point where no improvement is possible.

 

[diverbrian]

That's not a very good argument against anything. That's like saying you never want to go to the doctor again because you've seen some bad doctors out there.

<snip>

Someone once said, "Intelligent people get all the facts before they make a decision". Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but my suggestion would be to get more educated on what's taught in GUE classes before you make any assumptions about (dare I say it again) DIR. Just because a couple of "DIR" guys where a total CF in the water, doesn't mean they where “doing it right".

I happen to agree on these points with a vocal proponent of DIR.

For everybody out there, let's try not to judge a system or idea by observing one or two examples of it. A study isn't valid without a very wide data base.

 

[boomx5]

I happen to agree on these points with a vocal proponent of DIR.

I'm also a nice guy too. Well, at least that's what my wife and kids think.

 

[boomx5]

It's like two people; one wearing yellow sunglasses and the other wearning brown sunglasses. Both are looking at the same white ball but they can't agree on what colour it is.....

R..

I'm going to have to pilfer that one.

 

[Snowbear]

...those kind of buoyancy control skills take time.

So true - but how much time can be greatly influenced by an instructor/mentor who sets the example (i.e. kneeling on the bottom or hovering horizontal), gives students credit that these skills are learnable early in training and is good at providing feedback and pointers. Of course, it also depends on the student's willingness to learn and practice. I've used the example before of students in a class I'm DMing for - they are supposed to be kneeling in a semi-circle in front of the instructor taking turns demonstrating skills. As the DM, I'm hovering behind them where I can see the instructor as well as keep an eye on the class. Inevitably, the students waiting their turn notice the DM and try to imitate her - how much cooler is it to hang there like that instead of kneeling

 

[diverbrian]

So true - but how much time can be greatly influenced by an instructor/mentor who sets the example (i.e. kneeling on the bottom or hovering horizontal), gives students credit that these skills are learnable early in training and is good at providing feedback and pointers. Of course, it also depends on the student's willingness to learn and practice. I've used the example before of students in a class I'm DMing for - they are supposed to be kneeling in a semi-circle in front of the instructor taking turns demonstrating skills. As the DM, I'm hovering behind them where I can see the instructor as well as keep an eye on the class. Inevitably, the students waiting their turn notice the DM and try to imitate her - how much cooler is it to hang there like that instead of kneeling

We have our students lay down instead of kneel. They seem to figure out real fast that the middle of the water column is more comfortable than concrete and try to get there (especially when the instructor and assistants are in the middle of the water column). We also make sure to point out that many of the skills are far less difficult if you are neutrally buoyant to start with.

It still takes time before the ability to do this while doing things like handling a camera become a little less effort. But, I do agree that it accelerates the learning curve when the students see it done properly to start with.

 

[Snowbear]

We have our students lay down instead of kneel. They seem to figure out real fast that the middle of the water column is more comfortable than concrete and try to get there..

LOL! I like it - at least they're horizontal

 

[sweatfrog]

I used to skydive back when there were Para commanders and squares were brand new. You had to make 5 static line jumps to qualify for freefall. For you to be able to jump one of those fancy new rigs, you had to have at least 500 jumps. Now, everyone jumps squares and they start off that way. You can tandem jump your first time, or even freefall with the proper supervision. My point is that as equipment gets better, the rules start changing.

With that in mind, a recreational diver is not necessarily hooked after the first dive and sometimes needs to be held by the hand to gain their comfort level. I have been diving for a while now and I learned a long time ago that you need to crawl before you can walk. With that in mind and the fact that if I had been DIW (doing it wrong) all these years, I wouldn’t be around today.

While I’m sure MKH and the other DIR advocates are very knowledgeable, I have seen other threads where he is over zealous in his claims. That’s OK, this is not the gospel and you have to take each post with a grain of salt. Just like learning to sky or scuba dive, you can’t accomplish everything at once. It takes time to get good at whatever you are doing. If you want to become proficient at diving, expect to spend a lot of time in the water with your equipment, no matter what equipment you have. If you dive with people better than you and emulate them, you will get better yourself. The list goes on, but it’s all common sense.

This isn’t rocket science! The DIR philosophy should be the KISS philosophy. By closing the doors to all but a few, without paying GUE, the politics and the Halcyon appendage will never become anything but a pyramid scheme. If you stop learning, you’re dying.

 

[pipedope]

I know PADI instructors that have no buoyancy control whatsoever. If it's so important to PADI, (especially on the IDC end) why are these people making it through with no buoyancy control (and I'm not talking fin pivots)?



Someone once said, "Intelligent people get all the facts before they make a decision". Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but my suggestion would be to get more educated on what's taught in GUE classes before you make any assumptions about (dare I say it again) DIR. Just because a couple of "DIR" guys where a total CF in the water, doesn't mean they where “doing it right".

First off, let us see how well GUE has control of ALL of their instructors when they get to the size of PADI. Please do not hold your breath while waiting. Holding your breath can be dangerous for extended periods of time.

People don't get "all the facts" before making a decision. It is simply not possible to get all of the facts. The other problem is that in the beginning you don't have the training, knowledge and experience to understand and evaluate the facts as they are presented.

The GUE training DIR program has the advantage that Most of the important decisions regarding equipment and procedures/skills are made for you when you are starting out. The trap is assuming (we all know what that does, don't we?) that all of those choices made by the pioneers of GUE are still the best way to do it. As you gain knoledge and experience you need to keep testing and checking to see if you are making the best choices.
Here is a tip, if your answer to why something is done a certain way includes "JJ says so, or GI3 says so" then you probably need more study. Much better is to explain the reason why something is a certain way and what are the consequences of doing it differently.

Sure, there are very good reasons in the DIR system to hang stage bottles on the left but saying "Joe diver once hung 7, or 8 or whatever bottles on his left and was fine" does not educate anyone to what those reasons are.
Just because hanging bottles on both sides doesn't work in the DIR system doesn't mean that it cannot work in any system.

Right now, it is silly to even consider DIR for beginning divers because there is no OW entry level GUE course. Yes, I know that they are working on it but it is not here NOW.

Just out of curiosity, how many divers have been certified by GUE?

When an agency is small it is easy to maintain standards. As they get bigger it gets much harder.