The "other" end of the DIR question

[LioKai]

I have to agree with PIPEDOPE.

That is a heck-of-a name you gave yourself. I'm guessing you are a steamfitter?

 

[boomx5]

First off, let us see how well GUE has control of ALL of their instructors when they get to the size of PADI. Please do not hold your breath while waiting. Holding your breath can be dangerous for extended periods of time.

I don't see the bouyancy thing an issue of agency size so much as it is an issue of agency standards. GUE instructors are have a certain minimum requirements to that they meet or they will loose their instructor rating. Also, I don't think it's GUE's goal to be anywhere the size of PADI.

People don't get "all the facts" before making a decision. It is simply not possible to get all of the facts. The other problem is that in the beginning you don't have the training, knowledge and experience to understand and evaluate the facts as they are presented.

I didn't use the quote in an absolute sense, but rather to point out that people of intelligence tend to seek out facts before making a decision of judgement. I have also met incredibly smart individuals; brand new ow divers who don't need "all the training" to know how to call a spade a spade. Besides, when does one have all the training, knowledge and experience to be able to understand the facts as they are presented. Is it a determined number of dives? Or maybe a certain number of c-cards before someone becomes a scuba diving grown-up.

The trap is assuming (we all know what that does, don't we?) that all of those choices made by the pioneers of GUE are still the best way to do it. As you gain knoledge and experience you need to keep testing and checking to see if you are making the best choices.

I enbrase GUE training because for *me* it makes the most sense. If it didn't make sense to me, I wouldn't dive that way; and I don't care who likes it. I am always thinking of a better way of doing things. That goes for life as well as diving. I tend to bounce things off of other people to get their opinions and if it makes sense to me, I'll run with (I think it's that little bit of rebellion in me).

I also don't think that GUE training is the only training out there, nor is diving DIR the only way to dive. I have been VERY diplomatic on the internet and as well as in person about diving styles and I would NEVER put someone down for not diving the way I have chosen. I have friends (great people and good divers) who will never take GUE training and that is ok with me. I am very happy to dive with any of them.

Here is a tip, if your answer to why something is done a certain way includes "JJ says so, or GI3 says so" then you probably need more study. Much better is to explain the reason why something is a certain way and what are the consequences of doing it differently

I never use the argument of, "so in so said so", for anything in life unless I know the reasons why. In fact, in the GUE classes, they don't just tell you how to do it, they show you the why's behind doing it. They also go over the other ways of doing things and the advantages and the disadvantages of doing it that way.

Another note, I've never ever heard any of the GUE instructors that I know say that GUE training is perfect (I think that's a bit of a misnomer). What they say is they believe that GUE training is the best way to maximize team, resourses and equipment to have the most fun; which is ok because I'm not taking training from anybody who doesn't have conviction that what they are teaching is right.

Sure, there are very good reasons in the DIR system to hang stage bottles on the left but saying "Joe diver once hung 7, or 8 or whatever bottles on his left and was fine" does not educate anyone to what those reasons are.

I've never heard someone give the reasons for doing something as "because someone else did it and then did a 6 mile cave, you should be doing it to". That is not proper training, and that is not what takes place in a GUE class. Again, they give you the "why's" of doing things a certain way; nothing more, nothing less.

Right now, it is silly to even consider DIR for beginning divers because there is no OW entry level GUE course. Yes, I know that they are working on it but it is not here NOW.

I know beginning divers who have taken GUE training right out of an ow class. I also know of NAUI and SSI instructors t(who are also GUE instructors) that teach alot of the same principals that are taught in a GUE class, in their beginning open water courses.

You are right that there is no GUE ow classes as of yet, but they are starting the ow ITC in may, so it looks like it's right around the corner. OW ITC

Just out of curiosity, how many divers have been certified by GUE?

That's a great question Micheal, I'd sure like to know also.

When an agency is small it is easy to maintain standards. As they get bigger it gets much harder

I totally agree. I do know GUE has some standards in place like minimum # of dives and periodic instructor evaluations to try and enforce the standards, but MHK will be better at answering that question.

By the way, how have you been feeling lately; have you been diving much?

 

[fishnchips]

That's not a very good argument against anything. That's like saying you never want to go to the doctor again because you've seen some bad doctors out there.

Boomx5,
I'll still go to doctors, but I'll only go to those with the qualifications, professionalism and reputation that match my standard. And it was not an argument.

Someone once said, "Intelligent people get all the facts before they make a decision". Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but my suggestion would be to get more educated on what's taught in GUE classes before you make any assumptions about (dare I say it again) DIR. This is the answer to your own question: "I know PADI instructors that have no buoyancy control whatsoever. If it's so important to PADI, (especially on the IDC end) why are these people making it through with no buoyancy control (and I'm not talking fin pivots)?"

I don't think my experience with the group of "DIR" reflect the overall professionalism and standards of DIR, just like many PADI instructors do not reflect the standard of PADI. I personally have seen one of the largest PADI certificstion resort in Thailand/Asia having OPEN BOOK/TAKE HOME(hotel room) FINALS for its students!!!?? I was shock enough to contact PADI to confirm that was not the standard.

I do pick up good safety tips from DIR. The believe of "we are DIR, we have higher training standard than others", however, is stretching the truth. I know I would NEVER be caught dragging to the surface on a 7/8 ft? hose by a panic diver. I felt sorry and concern for the diver being dragged. Wish I was close enough to give a hand. But the scene was also very comical. This guy can't swim down cause he was dragged head up to the surface by this hose.... while he tried frantically to slow the ascent... tried to reach back to grab the hose and swim downward/horizontal at the same time.....

I would have handed the buddy my 3.0 cubic ft spare air and avoided the danger. If I have to use my octo, I could at least grab hold of the buddy to swim horizontal, at least have certain control. If you were there to see the accident, you will understand the safety benefit of long hose is a false assumption.

This is not a troll and not an invitation for heated argument. I just shared what I saw when diving DUane Wreck Last year.

 

[Zippsy]

Sheesh. I take the weekend off and the thread goes to pot..... but it seems to have come back a bit. For the vast majority that did not flame and resort to insults - thank you very much. I appreciate it and I am sure the mods do too. One comment I have is that IndigoBlue must be some sort of a huge candle because he is certainly a flame magnet.

To respond to some posts, I certainly did not mind that "DIR's" were reading or posting positive comments about DIR. The original question, by definition was asked of non-DIR's but people like Mike Kane contributed without, IMHO, proselytizing. At the same time, I understand that one of the things that bugs most "other" divers is the preaching for converts therefore different people will see where the line is drawn differently.

Finally, the main intent of my original question was personal - I simply wanted to find out if my reasons for not taking the DIRf class were "reasonable". One of the lesser purposes was so that GUE instructors could see what they are up against in terms of people's perceptions about their way of diving. I recently had a long discussion with a GUE instructor and, to use a expression I read here, he was definitely wearing brown sunglasses. Maybe I was wearing the yellow ones though.

Thanks again.

 

[bwerb]

Come on Scott...you know that Spare Air is the answer...

I respectfully apologize in advance for any feathers this may ruffle...I'm just trying to inject some humor and hope it's read as such.

Brian

 

[OneBrightGator]

I know I would NEVER be caught dragging to the surface on a 7/8 ft? hose by a panic diver. I felt sorry and concern for the diver being dragged. Wish I was close enough to give a hand. But the scene was also very comical. This guy can't swim down cause he was dragged head up to the surface by this hose.... while he tried frantically to slow the ascent... tried to reach back to grab the hose and swim downward/horizontal at the same time.....

I would have handed the buddy my 3.0 cubic ft spare air and avoided the danger. If I have to use my octo, I could at least grab hold of the buddy to swim horizontal, at least have certain control. If you were there to see the accident, you will understand the safety benefit of long hose is a false assumption.

You have got to be kidding me, first off, no one has the ability to drag me up by my regs, a quick jerk on the hose and it's free, the panicked diver will go straight up, leaving the hose, secondly, I don't dive with squirelly buddies, so it's not even an issue for me.

Spare Air, you have got to be kidding, I'd rather my buddy drag me to the surface from the deck of the Duane then run out of air at 80 ft.

Ben

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Spare Air, you have got to be kidding, I'd rather my buddy drag me to the surface from the deck of the Duane then run out of air at 80 ft.

A Spare Air won't get the average diver to the surface from 80 feet unless that diver exceeds a safe ascent rate.

I've seen the math in here before ... but basically considering that the type of person who's likely to carry a Spare Air is going to be relatively inexperienced, and with a relatively high SAC rate, it's safe to say that in an emergency their SAC could easily exceed 1 CF per minute. At a rate of 30 fpm, and coming up from 80 feet, they're going to run out of air at somewhere around 50 feet.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boomx5]

I don't think my experience with the group of "DIR" reflect the overall professionalism and standards of DIR, just like many PADI instructors do not reflect the standard of PADI.

That's good, I just hear the same old tired story about how someone got their toes stepped on by some self proclaimed "DIR guru"/ numbskull, that now they want nothing to do GUE or anything that remotely reflects "DIR". I also didn't think you were arguing, but I used that terminology for the lack of a better word.

 

[OneBrightGator]

A Spare Air won't get the average diver to the surface from 80 feet unless that diver exceeds a safe ascent rate.

I've seen the math in here before ... but basically considering that the type of person who's likely to carry a Spare Air is going to be relatively inexperienced, and with a relatively high SAC rate, it's safe to say that in an emergency their SAC could easily exceed 1 CF per minute. At a rate of 30 fpm, and coming up from 80 feet, they're going to run out of air at somewhere around 50 feet.

Absolutely correct, I was saying that in the situation fishnchips described (diver being drug up from the Duane by his longhose) that the panicked diver with the Spare Air would make it from the deck of the Duane at 110 or so to 80 ft. before he/she ran out of air in the Spare Air.

Ben

 

[IndigoBlue]

I understand your concern but I do think it makes more sense to just ignore the person than to attempt to discredit them with personal attacks.

To be honest I am probably equally at fault in that regard due to the tone I took in stating my concern about your response. My aplogies. Things often just hit me wrong before the first cup of coffee in the morning takes effect.

In any case when anyone resorts to attacking someone's character in a debate rather than sticking with debating the facts, they just end up looking like a jerk and only hurt their own credibility.

DA Aqua I have always enjoyed reading every one of your posts. They all show your deep power of thought, which is probably related to your legal day job.

I have to grit my teeth to ignor the personal attacks of some others. But I have found that is best, because the mods will not tolerate an all out war of slander and insults. Its like the NFL, in that you get penalized for retaliating as severely or worse than the initial offender.

In a bar, I think we would all get along pretty good. Mostly because some of us are over 200 lbs. And in a case like that, others would not be so quick to hurl personal insults. Ergo there would be peace.

My divemaster candidate happens to be a student of GUE-DIR. I have been supportive of her desire to become a Halcyon clad divemaster, even though all the students in the class are wearing Mares gear. I personally believe that the additional training that GUE gives their students is well worth it. There is also another A/I at our store, who has finished DIRF and it made him a great diver, better than he was before. He is really looking forward to GUE Tech-1 and Tech-2.

There are a lot of gear choices and methodology choices available to all divers. It is statistically unlikely that all of them will make the same choice, only one choice. In the meantime, or in other words in reality, I think it would be a really great diving world if all the OMS people and all the Halcyon people and all the Zeagle people and all the ScubaPro people, etc., and all the IANTD people and alll the TDI people and all the NAUI Tech people and all the GUE people, etc., would all get along, in peace.