The "other" end of the DIR question

[Boogie711]

DA - you and I have sparred in the past, and that's not fair or particularly nice of me either. You know what? I think NWGratefulDiver said it best just a few posts ago... a lot of us (not everyone) would probably would get along quite well in real life. The Internet just seems to bring out the contentiousness of some people.

 

[chickdiver]

I am sure Curt Bowen would love to have the opportunity to disagree with you. He advocates sidemount like you advocate GUE-DIR/Halcyon. And never the twain shall meet.

Did I mention DIR or my preference? No, I did not. I simply pointed out that NEITHER sidemount nor backmount will work for ALL apllications.

Now, what is your cave diving expereince again?

 

[fishnchips]

Elsewhere on the board is a question about why people got into DIR. This is kind of the opposite question that I am interested in finding out the thoughts of others. As has been pointed out, people can get touchy on both sides of the DIR fence. This is not meant to be a troll so let's not turn it into one.

I have a fairly good idea what DIR is, and I even agree with a lot, but not all, of what they say and the way they dive. I choose not to dive that way for a variety of reasons including 1) I actually enjoy diving with brand new divers (none of which are DIR), 2) I can't afford the equipment that I would probably need to buy someday, 3) I do fairly simple diving that does not seem to warrant the need for the additional benefits of DIR.

The question I have to the non-DIR divers is why haven't YOU taken up DIR? I too want an honest answer not the run of the mill gobbletygooop. Remember no name calling, no bashing, no bull, no proselytizing, simple honest answers. Politeness seems to have survived for a while in the other thread, so I have hopes for this one. If the MODS don't think this is a legitimate post. By all means trash the thread. No hard feelings.

(thanks Fred for the idea)

I think Dir has a lot to offer, such as the bungee around the neck, dive safey, check equipment, buddy system etc. I do pick up many good tips on safe diving from DIR and I do think the group provides good contribution to dive safety. But I'll never want to be dir. Here's why.....

I was at Key Largo Florida diving DUane Wreck. I signed on with a dive shop that only had 3 customers and they decided to put us on another dive boat with another dive operation. That was my first encounter with a group of people who called themselves "deer" or "Dirt" or something like that. They were not happy that we joined their boat. I was traveling solo and they look like they were experience divers. I asked if I can dive with them, and the respond from one of them was that way I set up my equipment, either I will kill myself or kill others too. The current was very strong that day. I was "flying horizontal" pulling myself down with the anchor line. Barely reached the wreck when I saw one of the guys with that long hose in funny situation...... his buddy shot to the surface dragging the long hose...he looked like he may had an O-ring burst as a lot of air excaped from the neck of his tank. The other diver tried to regain control but was drag to the surface by the long hose..... although it was a dangerous situation, It also look very funny...... dragging to the surface by another diver on a long hose, totally out of control.... I knew then I don't want to put myself in that dangerous and funny situation. A spare air would have eliminated the danger. When we surfaced with the rest of the "dangerous divers", the elite "deer/dirt" had been evacuated due to unforeseen situation, we were picked up by another dive operator's boat. Well, my equipment set up may be dangerous to the elite pro, but I knew I would never caught dead in that long hose situation. I think is rude to insult other divers just because they have a different equipment set up.

Another concern is I don't think degrading other training organization is the proper way to teach. I was reading Scuba Board about this guy report on his DIR class. He had a newthicker wet suit for his class and he was having problem getting proper buoyancy trim due to inexperience with the new thicker suit. This was a classic example of unfamiliarity with new equipment. According to his report, this supposedly highly admired DIR instructor comfort him by saying that it's not his fault, it is PADI's fault for not teaching him about buoyancy!

Well, I'm not sure the report's correct. But I remember my class from OW to IDC. Buoyancy is a very important skill to master in PADI class. I dive in cold and warm fresh/sea water, and changing different thickness wet suits and drysuit, with no problem because I learn about buoyancy in PADI class. Out of the blue a DIR student can't handle a new suit buoyancy problem and the DIR instructor blamed PADI. I just lost respect for an instructor who need to degrade other organization for his personal gain. I decided then, I don't want to be a part of that.

This is my personal real life experience and decision. Not a troll. :icorolley

 

[diverbrian]

I think Dir has a lot to offer, such as the bungee around the neck, dive safey, check equipment, buddy system etc. I do pick up many good tips on safe diving from DIR and I do think the group provides good contribution to dive safety. But I'll never want to be dir. Here's why.....

I was at Key Largo Florida diving DUane Wreck. I signed on with a dive shop that only had 3 customers and they decided to put us on another dive boat with another dive operation. That was my first encounter with a group of people who called themselves "deer" or "Dirt" or something like that. They were not happy that we joined their boat. I was traveling solo and they look like they were experience divers. I asked if I can dive with them, and the respond from one of them was that way I set up my equipment, either I will kill myself or kill others too. The current was very strong that day. I was "flying horizontal" pulling myself down with the anchor line. Barely reached the wreck when I saw one of the guys with that long hose in funny situation...... his buddy shot to the surface dragging the long hose...he looked like he may had an O-ring burst as a lot of air excaped from the neck of his tank. The other diver tried to regain control but was drag to the surface by the long hose..... although it was a dangerous situation, It also look very funny...... dragging to the surface by another diver on a long hose, totally out of control.... I knew then I don't want to put myself in that dangerous and funny situation. A spare air would have eliminated the danger. When we surfaced with the rest of the "dangerous divers", the elite "deer/dirt" had been evacuated due to unforeseen situation, we were picked up by another dive operator's boat. Well, my equipment set up may be dangerous to the elite pro, but I knew I would never caught dead in that long hose situation. I think is rude to insult other divers just because they have a different equipment set up.

Another concern is I don't think degrading other training organization is the proper way to teach. I was reading Scuba Board about this guy report on his DIR class. He had a newthicker wet suit for his class and he was having problem getting proper buoyancy trim due to inexperience with the new thicker suit. This was a classic example of unfamiliarity with new equipment. According to his report, this supposedly highly admired DIR instructor comfort him by saying that it's not his fault, it is PADI's fault for not teaching him about buoyancy!

Well, I'm not sure the report's correct. But I remember my class from OW to IDC. Buoyancy is a very important skill to master in PADI class. I dive in cold and warm fresh/sea water, and changing different thickness wet suits and drysuit, with no problem because I learn about buoyancy in PADI class. Out of the blue a DIR student can't handle a new suit buoyancy problem and the DIR instructor blamed PADI. I just lost respect for an instructor who need to degrade other organization for his personal gain. I decided then, I don't want to be a part of that.

This is my personal real life experience and decision. Not a troll. :icorolley

...that this is not typical of true DIR divers. I am already on record as saying that I am not looking at being DIR soon, but these things sound like divers that let their egos write checks that their diving skills couldn't cash. If I remember correctly, if you are diving DIR, you will have your buoyancy dialed in prior to diving a wreck like the Duane. The instructors in fundamentals (to my knowledge) aren't afraid to tell an experienced deep diver that he/she really doesn't have the skill in their opinion to go deep.

You SHOULD be humble because you will have been trained by somebody like my Advanced Nitrox instructor that can stop on dime underwater (any direction) and give you change without effort, look like a genie, and THEN remind you that HE is but a newbie and that there are far better divers than he is.

It is difficult for me to judge because we don't have many DIR divers in this neck of the woods (Central Michigan) and the ones that are around stay out of the dive shops because none of them carry the major equipment they dive with in large quantities.

But, the level of arrogance that you describe doesn't sound like Doing it Right to me. It sounds like a good way to run into problems like you witnessed.

The majority of the experienced DIR divers that I run into on this board appear to be very helpful and friendly. The "old attitude" that you refer to sounds like the stuff that GUE/DIR is trying to bury.

As to blaming PADI for buoyancy being off, well... I am responsible for my own buoyancy. I don't care what an instructor tells me about that. If I am having a "bad buoyancy day" that is on me alone. If the instructor can help me improve it (it will always need improvement), then so much the better. That would be one reason that I take a course like that. It wouldn't necessarily take an instructor to notice something. Many excellent divers never "go pro" and they are terrific sources of dive information. Since some of the DIRf instructors are PADI OW instructors, I guess that they can't bash PADI too badly now, can they, LOL?

 

[boomx5]

This thread is getting out of hand.

 

[DennisS]

If a diver takes a DIR-F and doesn't pass, are they a DIR diver?

 

[boomx5]

Yes and no.

 

[boomx5]

I think Dir has a lot to offer, such as the bungee around the neck, dive safety, check equipment, buddy system etc. I do pick up many good tips on safe diving from DIR and I do think the group provides good contribution to dive safety. But I'll never want to be dir. Here's why.....

That's not a very good argument against anything. That's like saying you never want to go to the doctor again because you've seen some bad doctors out there.

Another concern is I don't think degrading other training organization is the proper way to teach. I was reading Scuba Board about this guy report on his DIR class. He had a new thicker wet suit for his class and he was having problem getting proper buoyancy trim due to inexperience with the new thicker suit. This was a classic example of unfamiliarity with new equipment. According to his report, this supposedly highly admired DIR instructor comfort him by saying that it's not his fault; it is PADI's fault for not teaching him about buoyancy!

Did you know a new DIR-F student can be right out of a PADI open water class? The instructor wasn't pushing his agenda, but being honest about the way a PADI class is taught. I've seen it with my own eyes, and I've witnessed it in my own training; some of PADI's standards are just to low.

Well, I'm not sure the reports correct. But I remember my class from OW to IDC. Buoyancy is a very important skill to master in PADI class. I dive in cold and warm fresh/sea water, and changing different thickness wet suits and dry suit, with no problem because I learn about buoyancy in PADI class. Out of the blue a DIR student can't handle a new suit buoyancy problem and the DIR instructor blamed PADI. I just lost respect for an instructor who need to degrade other organization for his personal gain. I decided then, I don't want to be a part of that.

I know PADI instructors that have no buoyancy control whatsoever. If it's so important to PADI, (especially on the IDC end) why are these people making it through with no buoyancy control (and I'm not talking fin pivots)?

This is my personal real life experience and decision. Not a troll. :icorolley

Someone once said, "Intelligent people get all the facts before they make a decision". Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but my suggestion would be to get more educated on what's taught in GUE classes before you make any assumptions about (dare I say it again) DIR. Just because a couple of "DIR" guys where a total CF in the water, doesn't mean they where “doing it right".

 

[Diver0001]

<snip> According to his report, this supposedly highly admired DIR instructor comfort him by saying that it's not his fault, it is PADI's fault for not teaching him about buoyancy!
<snip>

I think these kinds of comments often have to do with a difference in point of view. PADI is admittedly the "diving is fun" organisation and as such the courses have a certain "tra-la-la" factor that GUE courses don't have. Also PADI divers are trained to minimum standards to get them started and the process of gaining experience happens in the water. Even when it comes to basic skills like buoyancy, much of the real learning happens after the course. In the PADI philosophy it's fine because, after all, diving is fun and they don't assume their OW students are going to be engaged in particularly risky activities right out of the gate.....

DIR on the other hand has it's roots in cave diving and tek training and therefore has inherited a bit of the paradigm that divers should be a kind of proficient that goes a little beyond "diving is fun" before they are certified. It's important, obviously, if you assume that the first thing someone is going to do out of the training is go dive in a cave.....

So when a GUE/DIR instructor says "PADI didn't teach you bouyancy" first of all, he means what he says, and secondly, he's right.....in a world viewed from his paradigm. Obviously from the "diving is fun" paradigm you were also taught bouyancy but you're looking at the world from a different perspective.

It's like two people; one wearing yellow sunglasses and the other wearning brown sunglasses. Both are looking at the same white ball but they can't agree on what colour it is.....

R..

 

[Snowbear]

...from the "diving is fun" paradigm...

Since learning better buoyancy control, I've crawled even deeper into the "diving is fun" box. It's much easier to have fun (for me anyhow) when I don't have to struggle with or even really think about basic skills - it just happens