The never-ending Jetfin debate...

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Yeah, the actual ability to propel yourself is not the only important thing with fins I think. I like my jets because I can rotate the fin and slice the water, use short little kicks for adjustment, etc.

Many proponents of splits suggest that a diver swims slow (sightseeing and soforth) the vast majority of the time and so the efficiency of splits takes lead. I tend to hover over something I'm looking at (all the time adjusting or pivoting as necessary) and then burst to the next thing.

Also, working with students is almost entirely waiting and adjusting and then bursting when they forget to take their finger off the inflator button for instance.
 
SeaJay:
...And I can give you a pretty good "lowdown" on the difference between the Jets and the Quattros...

By comparison of the Jets, the Quattros are about 2" longer and about 1.5" narrower. They are made mostly of plastic rather than rubber, which means that they aren't nearly as negative in the water.

...Which is a characteristic of the Jet fin which is truly beneficial, yet often overlooked. A correctly trimmed diver can adjust his body attitude in the water with a Jetfin... But must kick the Quattros to adjust attitude.

Imagine you're just floating there... Horizontally, and in the skydiver position. With the Jets, if you bend your knees, you'll go head-down. If you straighten your leg, you'll go head-up. The difference isn't much, but it's there... So the Jets have a serious advantage in control over the Quattros, especially for someone diving caves or wrecks where a kick might stir up silt.

Of course, if you do choose the Quattros, you can "fix" the weighting problem with some ankle weights, but that's sorta "putting a band-aid on it" if ya know what I mean.

Additionally, as you've mentioned, the Jets are much stiffer, making for precision kicks - at least much moreso than the floppy Quattros. Since they're shorter, too, they're easier to judge and retain control over the tips.

Lastly, the width of the fin actually means that there's more surface to the fin than with the Quattros (actually depending on size, but that's another issue). Frankly, I've found the Jets to be considerably more efficient at getting power to the water.

The only downside I can see is that they're so stiff that kicking a normal flutter kick is so powerful that it can tire you out pretty quickly. People not used to them complain of muscle strain and cramping. Quattros, as with many other soft fins, bend so much that they're sorta like pedaling a bicycle in a lower gear.

Anyway, your question was about alternate kicks... Yes, the Quattros do very well for alternate kicks. Frogging works well, and I'm even able to backwards kick in mine... Although it's much easier and more precise with the stiffer Jet. With my Quattros, I almost have to do these kicks in slow-mo in order to ensure that the fin doesn't "flop" and make my fin stroke worthless. Backwards kicks in the Quattros take a lot more ankle motion than the Jets in order to get them to work. This is because of the "floppiness" of the blade.

I once tried an interesting test... You decide on the validity: I put a Jet on one foot and a Quattro on the other and did a "standard" flutter kick underwater in zero vis in order to obscure direction. I swam in what I thought was a straight line; I applied the same amount of power to each fin to see if more power was produced with one fin or the other. I was floored to find that I went around in circles... Much to the favor of the Jet fin. It was like being in a higher gear with that fin.

There is one word of warning about the Jets, though... They simply don't fit everyone. The foot pocket is short and small, and I found them to be very uncomfortable. To me, this was enough of a reason why not to keep them, but I'm eagerly awaiting the new design (foot pocket) that's due out in the next couple of months. Additionally, I've found that selecting the right bootie for the Jets could solve the problem. Quattros... Well... They seem to fit everyone and are super-comfortable.

No doubt I'll be switching to the Jets soon... In fact, I'm dying to do the switch now. But I need to find the right combination of bootie and foot pocket before making my purchase.


I wear 1 1/2 pound ankle weights with my dry suit when wearing my quattros. I am getting XL jet fins. Do you think i 'll be able to stop wearing the ankle weights?? db
 
I wouldn't doubt it a bit. 1.5 lbs - that's close. I would say that the Jets are probably close to that negative, depending on salinity. Plus, they're further away from your center of gravity... So I've found them to be even more effective at "weighting" than an ankle weight would be.

So yeah, I think there's a good possibility. I know many people who have been able to dump ankle weights because they went with Jets.

One thing that I'd like to say that I've learned about Jets since I wrote the above: I've found that the foot pocket can vary from fin to fin, and I've found the latest "batch" of Jets to have a better pocket. A dive buddy - mgri on Scubaboard - let me try his XL's, and I found no flaws in the way they fit; the same happened to me when I tried Walter's Jets recently at Ginnie Springs.

I've asked Santa for a pair this Christmas... And I have a suspicious-looking box under the tree that weighs about 4 pounds... :)

I have loved my Quattros, but I sure would like to get a stiffer fin for diving - and relegate the Quattros to freediving (as I've done with so many other gear purchases - snorkels, BFK's, clear silicone masks, handheld lights...)

Please let us know how it goes for you - I'd be really interested in another opinion, to see if you find the same that I did.
 
jeremyrfoster:
Swimming against current is the equivalent of swimming very fast (in both scenarios, water is passing the diver at a higher rate).

Not quite true, but close.

Keeping your kick cycle/rythem constant:

A strong current creates a relative flow over the fin greater than when there is no current. When you now kick, the force of your kick is added to the relative current over the fin. This creates a higher force on the fin. If the fin doesn't have the added stiffness to handle this extra force caused the relative flow of the current, it will fold and become inefficient.

Swimming harder moves the fin through the water faster. But if there is no relative flow, then the only flow over the fin is that which you cause by the kick. This is still less than the force mentioned above.

Fluid dynamics (I'm no expert though, but this is the same for wind and wings which I do know something about.)

A fin can work good up to a max force created by a strong kick. But when you add the relative flow of the current, it can start to fail.
 
But mem, aren't you assuming that the diver is stationary relative to the ground? I mean, often if I'm sitting at the surface allowing the current to "take" me, I have no idea there is a current - until I look over to the shoreline and notice it moving by at an alarming rate.

If I were to descend and swim, I'd have no idea whatsoever that there was a current - until I hit the bottom (or at least saw it) and realized how fast I was moving.

In your fluid dynamics example, aside from turbulence, an airplane thinks that it's going 300 knots if it's airspeed is 300 knots... Whether the ground speed is 300 knots, 280 knots, or 320 knots.

Thus, does it not make sense to question the comment, "My split fins are faster than paddle fins, but not in a current?" Wouldn't "corrent" be the ultimate test of "speed?" (As if that was the only test of a fin's worth anyway.)
 
SeaJay:
In your fluid dynamics example, aside from turbulence, an airplane thinks that it's going 300 knots if it's airspeed is 300 knots... Whether the ground speed is 300 knots, 280 knots, or 320 knots.

Good clarification. I wrote that at 1:00am and left something out. In airplanes and in this case diving, there are two measurements of speed. The speed at which the diver/airplane moves through the fluid, and the speed at which the diver/airplane moves in relation to the ground. Speed measured through the fluid is referred to as 'indicated speed' and speed measured in relation to the bottom/ground is refered to as 'ground speed'. For performance measurements (force exerted, etc...), indicated is used which is a relative speed. For distance traveled in a given time, the real measurement in the speed equation, ground speed is used. A diver/airplane holding a contant ground speed while penetrating a current/headwind, will have to use more force than penetrating static water/air. When this fluid strikes the diver/airplane at any other angle than exactly straight on, then the vector force supplied to the fins/wings is the relative force and is not equal to just swimming faster.

Anyway, who really cares, right? We know we work harder swimming in currents and we need a stiffer fin. I read an article on future equip in Scubadiving a few months ago that said we'd all have boots with water propulsion systems in 25 years. Just point your feet and off you go!

Based on the thread, I think I'm going to try a set of Jet Fins with my new dry suit and see if they fit. My current fins aren't going to cut it, but they worked fine for how I used to dive (the Ford Taurus of dive fins are getting traded in on the muscle car Camaro of dive fins!)
 
SeaJay:
You're welcome, jplacson... I hope that helps.

'Roo: Yeah, man... I suppose that's possible... That the "Navy" XL Jet which is supposed to be slightly larger than the "regular" XL Jet is the actual "redesigned pocket" that they're talking about. But that's not what EE was hinting at... They were hinting that it was a true redesign.

I'm holding out a little longer. If I don't see a new Jet in the next month or so, I'm going to find a reliable source for the Navy Jet fin and then try some different booties to see what sort of combination works for me...


WHY DON'T I KNOW ABOUT THIS!! I am miserable without my Jets (rock boots) I can only hope this new Jet is not some cruel hoax! Please keep us informed on this.
 
this thread is from 2003...

edited by DA Aquamaster - It's a good idea to clarify that this is an old thread, so bear in mind many of the previous posters may no longer be around and that some of the information may be dated.
 
I have a pair of twin jets and I recently noticed that my knees are sore at the end of my second dive. Just wondering it is is the fins or possibly the way that im kicking or maybe a knee problem. Anyone else having the same expierence with or without twin jets?
 
Scuba pro has had the XXL jet fins in production for over a year now. They are indeed big enough for a rock boot.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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