The never-ending Jetfin debate...

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Thanks again to Seajay for all his help! :D

Looks like my Volos are gonna be just for snorkeling and free diving. Good thing I got the Volo Race.

My original choice was between the Quattros and the Volos... I already had the Volo Race fins, and was gonna get the Volos for when I do shore entries, or use booties.

I've been reading that the Volos don't perform as well as the Quattros, so my choice turned to the Quattros.

Now, my LDS has the Jets priced lower than the Quattros... and from the time I got certified (about 5 years ago)... the Jets were always recommended... but I never liked the way they looked (Not even a silver stripe or something!) . And I found them too heavy.

Power-wise, the Jets seem to be the way to go... with your leg muscles being the only apparent limiting factor for them.

I'll try on a pair soon. Thanks again.
 
You're welcome, jplacson... I hope that helps.

'Roo: Yeah, man... I suppose that's possible... That the "Navy" XL Jet which is supposed to be slightly larger than the "regular" XL Jet is the actual "redesigned pocket" that they're talking about. But that's not what EE was hinting at... They were hinting that it was a true redesign.

I'm holding out a little longer. If I don't see a new Jet in the next month or so, I'm going to find a reliable source for the Navy Jet fin and then try some different booties to see what sort of combination works for me...
 
So do the Jets perform better in a frog kick than a normal flutter?

The jets will tire you quicker in a flutter than in a frog kick, but this is more about which muscle group each kick utilizes. The flutter kick primarily uses the thigh and upper leg muscles which includes the largest muscle in your body. When the body has to feed this muscle because it is working hard you will tire quickly. The frogkick primarily uses the calf muscle which is much smaller. Combine this kick with the right fin, an efficient streamlined gear configuration and proper trim, you will find that rarely will you have to exert very much effort underwater.
The other advantage Jets have with being extremely stiff is that you can (with a little practice) reverse the frogkick and use it to slow down, much like how a helicopter flares before touching down, and even use the reverse kick to back up. I have not seen another fin as effective for multiple kick styles as the jet.

This is what is taught on the GUE fundamentals course, which is a topic for another thread.

Kevin
 
Kevin Ripley once bubbled...


The jets will tire you quicker in a flutter than in a frog kick, but this is more about which muscle group each kick utilizes.

Hmm.. Maybe there is something to that, but I think it has more to do with the efficiency of the kick itself. With the frog kick, you are moving water mostly in the opposite direction of travel. In a flutter kick with a stiff non-split fin, more water is moved perpendicular to the direction of travel, and all that effort is really wasted.
 
There is a great study in the most recent Undersea and Hyperbaric Medicine Journal called "Evaluation of fins used in underwater swimming" vol.30 No.1 page 57-73 which is the most thorough fin evaluation you will ever see, even better than Rodale's :D

The US Navy Experimental Dive Unit chose the fins and the research was supported by the US Navy, NAVSEA, and the Navy Experimental Dive Unit.

The fins tested were the Mares Attack, Apollo Biofin, Apollo Biofin with split duct taped closed, Blades, SP Jetfin, Mares Quattro, Oceanic Ocean Pro,and US Divers Compro

So guess which fins performed the best?

And the winner is the splits!

Just kidding, it was actually the Jets it appears on several fronts although the Apollo split fin with the split taped was pretty good too.

One really has to read the study to appreciate how comprehensive it is but some interesting numbers do stand out.

Stiffness: Mares Attack (5.45 N*m2) by a long shot was the stiffest and the Apollo was the least stiff (1.32). The Jets and Quattros were almost the same (1.92 vs 1.95)

Oxygen Consumption while free swimming: The Jets had the lowest oxygen consumption (l/min) of all the fins even better than the Apollos.

Aerobic Velocity :The taped Apollos were the fastest, and the Jets were faster by a little (.77 vs .75 m/sec) than the Quattro.

An interesting quote, "In our studies, the divers invariably ranked the stiff fins as the best and the flexible as the worse, which did not correlate with the objective evaluation of these fins." In other words just cause you feel like you are pushing a lot of water doesn't mean you are moving faster or that you are doing it efficiently. Perception and reality are very different when divers rate fins on how they 'feel'.

I think I read somewhere that many of the Seals were using Apollo Biofins and I can see why especially if one tapes the split closed, but given these guys likely often have to swim long distances and want the most efficient fin it appears the Jet is the most efficient while using the flutter kick.

They did not evaluate the ability to do the various alternative kicks, but those who have used Jets can attest to this capability. It would be interesting to try a pair of taped Biofins with the different kicks as I like their foot pocket much better than the Jets.

The only downside to the Jets I find is like Seajay says the foot pocket stinks and it is this fit which determines so much of the dynamics of how a fin performs. That is why the full foot fins are more efficient than a open heel fin.

I have yet to experiment with different booties for fit but there is one piece of advice I can tell you when buying a pair of Jets. There is huge variation in the wall thickness of the foot pocket which really determines whether the foot pocket remains a box or can become an oval around your foot. The first pair I bought I measured I think 5mm thick and the most recent 3mm. This made such a difference in how they fit that I got rid of the first pair.

A simple way to tell is to try and pinch the foot pocket closed from side to side with your thumb and third finger just above the pins for the buckle. On my first pair forget it, I couldn't do it. On the second not a problem. The first pair the foot box remained a box and dug into the top of my foot and the second the box becomes an oval around my foot. I really think if Scubapro thinned the rubber wall of the footbox down further it would conform much better to one's foot and tranlate into an even better fin. Maybe the military's Jet fin will have this feature.

All in all though a great fin, but a pair of high vis yellow would be great so I didn't have all those technical guys in black swimming into my fins and knocking off their masks.:D
 
Since I've had mine (one Large pair and 1 X large pair), about 4 months, I've converted 3 people over to the Jets by letting them borrow mine and had numerous inquisitions (not Spanish :wink: , which I didn't expect anyways ). I just ordered some Turtles also so I'm itching to test them out soon.
 
On a perfect dive, you would not be using your fins much at all. You would be hovering.

First floating down to your dive site, either down the anchor line of a boat dive, or down from above from your surface swim with your snorkel of a beach/shore dive.

You want to float down right on top of your dive site.

Then you want to float around there, with very little kicking.

The more you kick, the more air you consume.

You want to consume as little air as possible while you are underwater, so that you can stay longer.

So you don't want to kick.

So your fins really don't matter much.

Therefore the smallest fins, like Duck Fins, are best.
 
DeepTechScuba once bubbled...
On a perfect dive, you would not be using your fins much at all. You would be hovering.


So your fins really don't matter much. <SNIP>

Therefore the smallest fins, like Duck Fins, are best.

The more advise of yours I've read today, the more I seriously question what you wrote on your profile...

There is this little thing in the ocean called current...it causes the water around you to move and depending on how strong it is it can cause you to move with it. Fins help to steer you, guide you and act as a counter to the current. No, small fins aren't the ticket...learning how to correctly kick and use your fins is the ticket...finning is almost like using a steering wheel while driving...if you pay attention you will notice you are always making little corrections to your steering, you don't just hold the wheel in one place...same with finning, your fins are almost constantly in motion (small corrections and sculls) to keep you in the right position and to turn you to the left and right etc.
 
I have large SP Jets and love them. My favorite thing about them is their maneuverability. I love being able to slice the water sideways to get my fin to the right position to do the stroke that I need. The fact that they fit well in the gear bag is a bonus too.

I see what you're all talking about with the foot pocket. It is rather stiff and unforgiving. I don't notice it underwater though. I think I got rather lucky with my boot/fin combination because I got both off of ebay ($25 for the boots and $40 for the fins - including shipping). I love getting deals like that!

jplacson, it's interesting that you long for more style in the Jet. I love their classic style. The "frog" tip looks so Navy Seal to me. I loath scuba "fashion" (so hot pink lowers your chances of being mistaken for a seal by a whitey... I'd rather be eaten).

I was thrilled to hear that the Jets performed so well in the Undersea and Hyperbaric Medicine Journal test. I thought I was taking a hit in efficiency to reap the other benefits of Jets. Sounds like it's good all around though.
 
jeremy... I know there's nothing wrong with the Jetfins... I'm just the kind of guy who likes change.

Anyway, I do have one main gripe though... seeing as everyone who gets Jets changes the straps to springs... why not include them as standard already??? Why still stick with the same strap from the 1900s???
 

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