The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[medical1]

dep1466 once bubbled...
The LDS's are going to have to find a way to change. You cannot expect a person to buy from you, at double the price just because your a nice guy. Money is money and no one has enough of it. I'm not gonna just start giving it away. People are going to find out they can get it cheaper, and they will. If selling merchandise is that much of your business, eventually all of them will go out of business.
People will go where its the cheapest. Its just the way it is. Thats why wal mart is so popular. Its cheap.
And I know you keep saying its the manufacturers regulating the price. Well the LDS deals with the manufacturer, not me. Sounds like you need to renegotiate your deal.

Dep - What would you do without your LDS. Remember You need them Where would you get your air fills?

Personally at the rate the LDS are going - I'll take a class in equip maintenance, gas mixing, buy my own compressor or hookah unit & chater my own dive trip if there are no LDS left. I'll still buy my equipment where I get the most bang for my buck!

I'm not going to support a business that thinks it's my duty to pay higher prices & that I owe something too. :upset:

 

[MikeFerrara]

medical1 once bubbled...
Since LeisurePro seems to have the ONLY underground discount source of products - why not just buy stock from LeisurePro?

Lately we have done some of that. The problem there is getting manufacturer support. You can't get authorized to service the equipment because you're no a dealer and the insurance company won't touch you with a ten foot pole especially with servicing.

Mark a BC up $100 to $200 and you would still be selling cheaper then most LDS and still make a profit.

Better yet - since I believe LP might be getting a better price for buying in bulk from the manufacturer - why not get some shops together (Cooperative) and pull resources

If LP gets their stuff from the manufacturer (and they might) the manufacturer won't admit it. The manufacturer's story is that when they catch a dealer selling to a place like LP they'll cut them off.

Shops won't get together. they still think that's what DEMA is.

If your hands are tied by the manufacturers then how does LP, DiscountDivers or any of the other discount sites do it? I'm tired of the blanket answer that they sell "Grey market goods".

The grey market seems to have a great selection of new products - Tusa, ScubaPro, DiveRite, Genesis, Zeagle, Spare Air, Body Glove, & Dacor just to name a few. Where do they get there inventory - Organized crime, the Russian Mafia, Hijacking trucks? No - they buy from the same people you bought from - The manufacturers.

PS: Mike - stand in line - my G/F always tells me I'm wrong ut:

Here I'll take your guess. I haven't a clue. I do know that sometimes they sell stuff that's been sitting a while (the regs that leak) but that can happen in a shop also except that it should be cought when they test it. The bottom line is that we don't know where they get their stock. As long as you bring it up though, the whole thing does have a mob aura about it. Again if they buy from the manufacturers I sure wish some one could prove it. That would make my day.

 

[medical1]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Snip
The bottom line is that we don't know where they get their stock. As long as you bring it up though, the whole thing does have a mob aura about it. Again if they buy from the manufacturers I sure wish some one could prove it. That would make my day.

I'll be speakin to my cousin Vinnie in Newark this week. I'll have him inquire around if you know what I mean

He has a way of gettin answers :boom:

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...


.... the approach to such a problem is to destroy those shop's market.

How?

Educate the "average joe" so that before he takes that OW class he knows that he can buy his mask at Walmart (they actually sell damn good masks around here!), snorkel (ditto) and fins (Leisurepro) either from discounters or mail order, and that the rest of their gear can come from LP too.

Now the guy who takes the OW class isn't a "mark" any more.

It will not take much of a shift in percentages of people who they cannot sell to before this type of "screw the consumer" marketing collapses.

I've worked at this for a long time. The problem as I see it is that one minute a person has no interest in diving and the next they see a picture in a magazine. They book a trip two weeks out and then their on the phone wanting to be certified before friday. You have about thirty seconds to educate some one who could care less. It's funny, the only question any prospective students ever ask is how much and how long. Never, not even once in hundreds of students has any one ever tried to find out if I'm a good instructor. I could kill six a month and nobody would give a hoot. Define educate in that context. I've had people bring their kids to me. they still only ask how much and how long.

 

[MikeFerrara]

emmagee once bubbled...
Interesting reading the responses, I had no idea I would get this kind of resonse.

I went into the LDS today checkbook in hand prepared to buy the SP regs. with octos. and two Aeris computers. I asked the guy if he had any room on the number he quoted me the other day, he said not really and then asked me if I was going to buy two BC's and I said yes. He told me to wait until I was ready to buy them, and it will probably be Sat. after my gf does her checkout dives and she has had a chance to wear a couple of different ones. He told me to wait until Sat., print out what I can buy it for elsewhere and bring it in, said buying everything at once gives him more flexibility. After today am am confident that I will be able to deal with my LDS; I'll let ya'll know what happens.

Again, I really want to deal with my LDS, they have been great and it is worth something for real face-to-face interaction and being able to try gear on, etc. It's a shame that their hands are tied by the mfg., as these are the guys most divers work with.

This we can do. If you buy a diverite product and a halcyon I can give you a price. If diverite gets after me I tell them I gave the discount on the halcyon and visaversa.

Now if you come into the store and we make a deal, who knows about it?First of all that's great but I can't advertise those prices so it doesn't get me more business. Word of mouth doesn't work well in town because so many divers only dive on vacation and don't even know any other divers around (might be different in coastal areas or with club members)

Aside from that here's what happens and I've been nailed by it. I agree to a good price. The customer knowing it's a good price gets greedy. He goes to another dealer and says THIS is what Mike will sell it to me for, what can you do? That dealer then calls the manufacturer and informs them that I'm in violation of my dealer agreement. The next thing you know I've got somebody on the phone. Customers can't keep anything to themselves. If they get a lousy price they badmouth you. If they get a good price and you ask them to keep quit they go and brag. Either way it doesn't get you more business but does get you introuble.

 

[medical1]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I've worked at this for a long time. The problem as I see it is that one minute a person has no interest in diving and the next they see a picture in a magazine. They book a trip two weeks out and then their on the phone wanting to be certified before friday. You have about thirty seconds to educate some one who could care less. It's funny, the only question any prospective students ever ask is how much and how long. Never, not even once in hundreds of students has any one ever tried to find out if I'm a good instructor. I could kill six a month and nobody would give a hoot. Define educate in that context. I've had people bring their kids to me. they still only ask how much and how long.

Turn it around - How many dive shops try to sell as much junk as they can to a new student. You state it yourself. Sell the equipment at MSRP and make as much money as you can quickly to the newbie. Teaching is secondary.

I took private lessons AFTER my DM & I came to an agreement to STOP the hardsell :upset:

I also took private lessons so I didn't end up a DAN statistic. I know my class was much more thorough although I was a not as educated as the general class on why I NEEDED to buy the pair if Tusa split fins for $159 from the LDS that I bought from LP for $89

Perhaps the equipment is not as important as the teaching. I'll spend more on training and buy my equipment at a discount! :mean:

 

[Otter]

First, there is alot of "noise" thrown into LDS vs. online discussion -- often about poor customer service. I call it noise because it really is independent of the heart of the matter. If a business Online or LDS gives poor customer service, most people won't buy from them anymore.

The truth of the matter comes down to the simple fact when the amounts of money are small, most people "do the right thing". For instance, if someone went into a store and was incorrectly charged $5.00 for a $8.00 item and knew the clerk simply entered the wrong amount, I believe most people would correct the clerk and feel better about it. HOWEVER, if someone went into a store and was incorrectly charge $500 for an $800 item, the 'savings' of $300 would be quickly rationalized as "it wasn't my fault" or "they give lousy service"...blah blah blah. Character integrity suddenly takes a back seat.

Fast forward to the LDS vs. Online issue. If someone does all of their research on a product, picks it, makes a best estimate on size, never goes to the LDS for a sizing and then buys ONLINE, then regardless of past benefits that the LDS has provided, one could feel reasonably well that they did the right thing. However, when someone goes in and picks the brains of the LDS, gets sizing, and then goes online, thats IMHO a character flaw. If they were saving $3.00 they would probably go ahead and just buy it. But if it cost them $300 more, then they go the other way.

Now some will argue that the LDS didn't deliver $300 worth of value....well, lets see. What is the value of the purchasor's time, frustration, shipping charges, restocking fees for getting the right size the first time? Whats the value in selecting the right piece of equipment vs. a piece of equipment that they won't like in 6 months? Whats the value in the immediate gratification (often demanded in our society) of being able to walk about with gear in hand versus waiting a week or so to have it delivered? I believe most people would say that there is a great deal of valuje applied to all of that. The truth is that we don't want to have to pay for all of that value if we don't have to......not necessarily because we don't value it, but because there isn't anyone forcing us to pay for the value....I think it comes down to character....a quality that seems to be declining in value.

YMMV
Otter

 

[crazed_dolphin]

I don't feel guilty since my LDS is also one of the largest online seller of SCUBA goods. Their in store and online prices are the same low price.

 

[JohnCollins]

If your LDS is full of knuckleheads who don't know much about diving or the equipment, if their service area is a mess and doesn't have the proper regulator servicing bench, if they're surly and you suspect they're really just cleaning the outside of your reg when you bring it in for service. . .buy online.

If you have a shop like I do nearby that has proprietors with over 40 combined years of diving experience in the local area and abroad, they run supervised trips every weekend, they carry a wide selection of gear and are happy to give you good advice, then support the heck out of them. That doesn't mean you don't negotiate price with them, but you pay up for having them there. I want my guys to be successful and happy in the dive business.

The point folks are missing here is that the dive equipment is a commodity, the knowledge and service the LDS offers is not. The knowledge and service LDS's offer varies all over the map, some are worth supporting and some are not. It's like anything else.

Books are a commodity, and though I like my local B&N I buy a lot of books on Amazon, because I wouldn't lose anything if the local B&N closed. There's no advice value added there. Not true at my LDS. Their service and advice is very important to me.

I think of it as not paying more for the equipment, but paying a "tax" for having the shop's service and advice close by. And it's well worth it. There are other shops in the area that should close, and savvy divers know the difference.

My two proprietors at my LDS with the wealth of experience could do something else for a living. They'd still be experienced divers but I would have access to them or their superior service. Their closure would hurt me more than them. The discussion shouldn't be about equipment prices, because that's not what the price differential is about. If you're happy never setting foot in a dive shop, service your own equipment, don't value anything from your LDS, then by all means, shop online, it's not a moral issue.

But if the LDS is valuable to you and you'd hate to see them close, then support them. It's that simple.

 

[MikeFerrara]

SeaJay once bubbled...


I believe that it would be fair if the LDS were to add 10% to 15% margin for the fact that I can see the item and hold it in my hand, and buy it today. That's 10% to 15% OVER THE ONLINE PRICE PLUS SHIPPING.

I don't believe you own a retail store. If you did you wouldn't come up with this crap. You should know better. I have repeatedly shown that LP prices are often down near what I pay for things. 10% over that won't pay the light bill nevermind paying some one to stand there and spend their time with you.

It isn't valid to use LP prices for a benchmark since nobody has yet even been able to show where or how they get their stock.

You people just don't get it and you're not going to.