The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

medical1 once bubbled...


Turn it around - How many dive shops try to sell as much junk as they can to a new student. You state it yourself. Sell the equipment at MSRP and make as much money as you can quickly to the newbie. Teaching is secondary.

That's certainly the game. The result is that you have minimum wage people teaching diving.
I took private lessons AFTER my DM & I came to an agreement to STOP the hardsell :upset:

I also took private lessons so I didn't end up a DAN statistic. I know my class was much more thorough although I was a not as educated as the general class on why I NEEDED to buy the pair if Tusa split fins for $159 from the LDS that I bought from LP for $89

Now your on to something. I attempt to teach divers not just what they need to survive underwater but how to get along in the diving world. The only thing I have to add here is that I wouldn't have let you use split fins in the class because you would be unlikely to be able to learn the complete range of finning techniques that I teach while using them. The fins I would have recommended would have been much cheaper and you could do more with them. The proof would be in the water. Of course after the class you could use whatever fins you want and dive how you want but at least then it would be by choice.
Perhaps the equipment is not as important as the teaching. I'll spend more on training and buy my equipment at a discount! :mean:

I like to hear that. However, for what OW classes are selling for they're usually not even break even. Mine have been almost break even but that's because I never got paid. We won't ever have good instruction until it becomes a profit center. If you campare technical instruction to recreational instruction you can get an idea. A trimix class that's about half as long as an OW class (six or so dives but you don't have all the pool) is going to cost between $600 and $1000 plus instructor expenses, gas, charter fees and books. You'll have $2000 easy in it before you're done. Also most of the divers taking the class already have the basics down and the class is much easier to teach, IMO. Since the person is already a diver, I also believe that the liability risk is less. Also many instructors require that you have the full DAN insurance before you even start.

If mainstream instruction ever becomes a profit center and OW class is going to be about $1500. A private of course is going to be way more. That's what it's going to cost to get an experienced diver and instructor to spend 40 hours or more really teaching you to dive. There are thousands and thousands of instructors but a large percentage of them can't dive let alone teach. They're a dime a dozen because that's what they're worth.

The current economics of the dive industry is funny. Divers are running aroung complaining about LDS prices and bragging about the deals they get on line but what I see in the water tells the rest of the story. They may be getting their equipment cheap but their getting cheated because they're not learning to dive. I see several hundred divers a month in the water and it's so VERY VERY rare to see some one with even the most basic skill set. Divers are for the most part getting a great deal on mostly junk equipment that they'll likely never learn how to use. Such a deal. You get certified by a non-diving fool for a couple hundred bucks. Then you get a bunch of junk cheap from LP that you will through in the garbage if you ever stumble your way to learning to dive. You'll likely respend the training money also. See how many people are spending 300 on a DIRF to learn what they should already know. If you get the right instruction and the right equipment from the beginning you can spend more for it and still save tons of money and get way more for it.

LOL. I got off easy. I spent my time and money, learned what I need to know and now I can go dive unincombered by all the bs. LP can't sell you that. Now if only I could sell those split fins I've had hanging on the wall for three years. LOL
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...


That's certainly the game. The result is that you have minimum wage people teaching diving.

Now your on to something. I attempt to teach divers not just what they need to survive underwater but how to get along in the diving world. The only thing I have to add here is that I wouldn't have let you use split fins in the class because you would be unlikely to be able to learn the complete range of finning techniques that I teach while using them. The fins I would have recommended would have been much cheaper and you could do more with them. The proof would be in the water. Of course after the class you could use whatever fins you want and dive how you want but at least then it would be by choice.


Mike - Your up early & you make some good points about the industry. I researched my DM like I was buying a used car. The equipment is no good if you get a crappy instructor. :(

The instruction/instructor should be primary! I don't consider dive training a game when MY life is on the line. I also don't consider diving just underwater tourism that can be mastered in a weekend class.

As for the split fins - I did my training with regular fins. I bought the split fins after my training for fossil hunting mainly. I have 3 different type of fins so I can make a choice depending on the need for the spicific dive condition :)

Training should not be based solely on price. :wacko:
I'll pay more if thats what it takes to get proper THOROUGH training if they would just leave the equipment hard sell out of the course.

The agencies are just as bad as the LDS in trying to market & sell you as much crap as possible before you even start diving. ;-0

Most of the agency books are nothing but marketing! I don't think you need a chapter on travel luggage as being part of your "Total dive package" unless your in the game to sell luggage.

Lets start a NEW dive agency. LTSSSYDD - Learn true scuba skills so you don't die :out: No equipment sales - just good thorough instruction.
 
You can't get authorized to service the equipment because you're no a dealer and the insurance company won't touch you with a ten foot pole especially with servicing.

why do you need to be authorized? LP services everything they sell. they do not seem to have any trouble getting parts kits and either don't worry about insurance (unlikely) or were able to get it.
 
As someone who ran a very small and then a fairly-decent sized corporation, let me tell you how you go about this.

1. The very small "one or two man shop." If you don't have much of anything then you're judgment proof. Go ahead and do what you want. Get sued? File bankruptcy. End of problem.

2. The very small "one or two man shop, but I own a nice house and have a half-million retirement fund." Incorporate the business and put the assets in a trust or other "bullet-proof" means of protection against suits. Do what you want. No liability insurance? No problem. See above. The guy coming after you first has to get through the corporate veil, and if/when he does, he STILL is screwed as you have no personal assets to attach. End of problem (again)

3. Larger corporation (over $1m in annual biz.) You can get insurance. You still are wise to employ the (2) stuff, because even with good liability insurance the bigger you are the more likely that the "oh no" problems will be REALLY BIG problems rather than little ones - more than your insurance will cover. Also, with a larger corp you get MUCH better corporate protection, as you can take a couple of silent (money only) stockholders on private transactions (just be careful of the SEC rules!) and that makes the corporate veil damn near bulletproof. Now your insurance is protecting the BUSINESS assets, not your personal ones (they're reasonably safe.) Do what you want - again.

In addition to this, you need proper paperwork, including solid liability releases for everything you do, especially with work like this.

All of this requires decent corporate counsel; good legal advise doesn't come cheap, but its worth the money.

There ARE some jurisdictions where this doesn't work, but they are few and far between, and if you live in one, MOVE!

As an example, in Florida if I was to decide to run a dive charter boat the releases are damn-near-nuclear-proof. There is a long chain of court decisions that dive boat releases are enforceable - just about the only way you can sue and win is if I run you over with the boat! Anything you have happen while actually diving is your problem, assuming the release is properly crafted.

This is NOT true in some other states, but it is here! So if I wanted to run a dive charter boat, I sure as heck wouldn't be doing it in a place where those releases are NOT solid!

Let's be honest here Mike. You've done regs for how long? Have you EVER had one fail in a way that led to an injury? No? So what, realistically, are you insuring against? :) (Yeah, I know, you don't buy insurance for things you think will happen..... and insurance companies don't sell insurance against things they think will happen either!)
 
Buy the basics, mask, fins, snorkel, booties, before you jump headlong into the big $$ items. Spend some time trying a few different brands, style of BC's and reg's. Online research is far different from first-hand experience.

I have been diving for 15 years. I will buy some items, lights, gloves, fins, mask, online. I still buy BC's and regs from my instructor in Texas. I want the manufacturers warranty with no questions asked.

One poster above stated that you should not spend much money on a snorkel as it won't be used much. I disagree.

When I go to places like the Caribean, Hawaii, etc., I can spend a lot of time snorkeling, whether it is during a surface interval or the two days I don't dive before flying home. Some of the best places to see and photograph sealife are surface to 10' in some areas. Ideal snorkeling areas.

A quality snorkel is worth the expense.
 
docmartin once bubbled...


why do you need to be authorized? LP services everything they sell. they do not seem to have any trouble getting parts kits and either don't worry about insurance (unlikely) or were able to get it.

We have been told recently that they send their stuff out for service. Who ever actually services the equipment has access to parts.

As many hear know it takes some work to get your hands on parts and manuals.
 
docmartin once bubbled...


why do you need to be authorized? LP services everything they sell. they do not seem to have any trouble getting parts kits and either don't worry about insurance (unlikely) or were able to get it.

You can ship it to leisurepro - I just hate to wait on the mail sometimes. I'll take the money I save by shopping at LP for most of my equipment & have my stuff serviced at my LDS. Turnaround time is better. My LDS still gets my money for service - they just don't get to overcharge me on the equipment sales. :)

If your LDS won't service your equipment (NO MATTER WHERE YOU BOUGHT IT) then find another LDS.

My LDS send my BC back to the factory for service for me. No hassles & they knew I didn't buy it from them. They were still happy to see me & because of that attitude I referred some friends to the shop. They bought 4 tanks & some trips so my LDS was thrilled.

I also give the LDS the shot to earn my business. I walk in with the best price on the equipment I'm looking to buy and see what they can do.

Sometimes they can do something & if they can't they tell me to buy from LP as they can't beat there price! That's why I support this LDS - NOT because I have to. They need me as a customer and realize word of mouth is the BEST advertisment.

No hard feelings or pushyness. They realize $ is $. They still get my business from my referrals to other divers,hydros, service, vip's, training, & dive trips.

ALL GOOD :)
 
Genesis once bubbled...
Snip
As someone who ran a very small and then a fairly-decent sized corporation, let me tell you how you go about this.

1. The very small "one or two man shop." If you don't have much of anything then you're judgment proof. Go ahead and do what you want. Get sued? File bankruptcy. End of problem.

2. The very small "one or two man shop, but I own a nice house and have a half-million retirement fund." Incorporate the business and put the assets in a trust or other "bullet-proof" means of protection against suits. Do what you want. No liability insurance? No problem. See above. The guy coming after you first has to get through the corporate veil, and if/when he does, he STILL is screwed as you have no personal assets to attach. End of problem (again)

Florida S Corp $250.00 / Protecting my butt - priceless!
 
Genesis once bubbled...


...
Let's be honest here Mike. You've done regs for how long? Have you EVER had one fail in a way that led to an injury? No? So what, realistically, are you insuring against? :) (Yeah, I know, you don't buy insurance for things you think will happen..... and insurance companies don't sell insurance against things they think will happen either!)

All of what you said is true and some combination of it is what we're going to do now. I don't know how much teaching I'm going to do or how much equipment I'm going to sell but it'll all be done differently.

As a side note, I'm not worried about a reg I service causing injury. I'm worried about being sued just because I touched some ones reg. Winning might be easy if you can afford a defense.
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...


We have been told recently that they send their stuff out for service. Who ever actually services the equipment has access to parts.

As many hear know it takes some work to get your hands on parts and manuals.

In addition to the above. I have yet to find out a way to consistantly get the merchandise without being a dealer. LP does it but I don't know how.
 

Back
Top Bottom