The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[TCDiver1]

gedunk, I don't own a LDS but I do own a server company. I also understand and would be satisfied for a limited mark up. But I also know that a 100% mark-up on some items isn't necessary. And when your average mark up is over 80% then it's just to the point of ridiculous.

Like i said Travis, we all are entitled to our opinions but i think you missed my point. How can you say an 80% mark up is ridiculous if you don't know what the costs are? For all we know an LDS could be losing money at 80%. How would you or i know that? Just because its cheaper on the net, doesn't make the LDS mark up unnecessary or ridiculous.

Besides online sources don't provide the same services as an LDS so its a tough comparison to make IMO, unless your only criteria is up front cost. To each his/her own but i try to look at more than just cost when making purchase decisions.

 

[wedivebc]

I was getting ready for a dive yesterday when my buddy noticed he needed a mouthpiece for his reg. He didn't bat an eye when the LDS charged him $15 and change for one of those clear silicone jobs from Trident. I just about fell over but kept quiet to preserve my good standing with the LDS.
I see the strategy. Too many customers going to internet sales so let's raise prices to keep profits up. In this day and age retailers have to be competative to stay alive.

 

[TravisT]

Like i said Travis, we all are entitled to our opinions but i think you missed my point. How can you say an 80% mark up is ridiculous if you don't know what the costs are? For all we know an LDS could be losing money at 80%. How would you or i know that? Just because its cheaper on the net, doesn't make the LDS mark up unnecessary or ridiculous.

Besides online sources don't provide the same services as an LDS so its a tough comparison to make IMO, unless your only criteria is up front cost. To each his/her own but i try to look at more than just cost when making purchase decisions.

gedunk, we don't know down to the penny how much the manufacturers are charging. But we do know that Internet Businesses like LeisurePro.com arn't running the site for their good health and are making 'Some' money off of it most likely.

This is how I came up with my mark-up's. I simply compared the prices at Leisurepro.com and some other Internet Sites with the prices at the Dive Shop. And a lot of the time the prices were 100% different. A $400 computer at Leisurepro costing $800 at the LDS. Now don't get me wrong, I understand there are other factors that come into play.

I understand that the Dive Shop has overhead where some of these Internet Businesses have $20.00 Webhosting fee's. I also understand that the LDS's may be held up to higher standards as far as repairs, replacements, ect than the internet business's. So I do expect walking into a LDS and paying a little more for the equipment to cover the additional benefits of buying there.

But I don't understand how the $400+ dollars they want than what they paid for that dive computer is justifiable. I'm assuming the manufacturer handles replacements and likely doesn't cost the LDS more than shipping charges or maybe restocking fee's in some circumstances. But is their time they spent 10 minutes showing you the computer worth $400 to you?

I'm sorry, I just don't see that as justifiable or good business habits. By going that route, I don't feel they want anything more than my money in their pocket if they arn't willing to be competitive on pricing.

 

[MikeFerrara]

gedunk, we don't know down to the penny how much the manufacturers are charging. But we do know that Internet Businesses like LeisurePro.com arn't running the site for their good health and are making 'Some' money off of it most likely.

This is how I came up with my mark-up's. I simply compared the prices at Leisurepro.com and some other Internet Sites with the prices at the Dive Shop. And a lot of the time the prices were 100% different. A $400 computer at Leisurepro costing $800 at the LDS. Now don't get me wrong, I understand there are other factors that come into play.

I understand that the Dive Shop has overhead where some of these Internet Businesses have $20.00 Webhosting fee's. I also understand that the LDS's may be held up to higher standards as far as repairs, replacements, ect than the internet business's. So I do expect walking into a LDS and paying a little more for the equipment to cover the additional benefits of buying there.

But I don't understand how the $400+ dollars they want than what they paid for that dive computer is justifiable. I'm assuming the manufacturer handles replacements and likely doesn't cost the LDS more than shipping charges or maybe restocking fee's in some circumstances. But is their time they spent 10 minutes showing you the computer worth $400 to you?

I'm sorry, I just don't see that as justifiable or good business habits. By going that route, I don't feel they want anything more than my money in their pocket if they arn't willing to be competitive on pricing.

it's not justifiable but comparing LP to a dive shop isn't valid because LP isn't a dive shop. They're also not a dealer for most of what they sell. They don't need dive shop insurance, the expense of a fill station. loss leader training, dive shop insurance and they (not being dealers) aren't obligated to follow a dealer agreement.

I'm with you guys but you can't just blame the shops and let the manufacturer off the hook.

If you buy the same products but just buy from a non-shop...you continue to reward the manufacturer and put all the burden on the shop...grant it, some deserve it.

 

[TravisT]

Good points Mike, I hope you arn't misunderstanding me though. I honestly do understand that there has to be some 'mark-up's' in order for our LDS's to stay in business. I guess there is a point though, for me, when the prices become ridiculous.

This is like asking me to buy gas at a gas station that is twice as high as someone 20 miles down the road. They may give the full service, wash my windows, check my oil, and give me the benefit of not having to get out of my car to pay, but I would rather save the money and pump it myself and when I need an oil change hopefully they'll be polite enough to change it with a small service fee.

I look at this equipment the same way. As far as the manufacturer's getting off the hook, there's not much we can do about that. Until we decide to create our own BC's, make our own regulators, the manufacturer's in general will continue to get our money, whether we buy it from LDS's, non-dealers, or used equipment off ebay that someone else has already given money to the manufacturer for.

I'm with you as well though, just don't really see any way of stiffing them just yet.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Good points Mike, I hope you arn't misunderstanding me though. I honestly do understand that there has to be some 'mark-up's' in order for our LDS's to stay in business. I guess there is a point though, for me, when the prices become ridiculous.

I understand. The industry has put the consumer in a bad position. I don't have a problem with some one making money for what they do. I know I try to do that. I do have a problem with having to pay more because it's subsidizing other services though and if some one else is selling for less guess what? Why should we be surprised when divers buy from them?

This is like asking me to buy gas at a gas station that is twice as high as someone 20 miles down the road. They may give the full service, wash my windows, check my oil, and give me the benefit of not having to get out of my car to pay, but I would rather save the money and pump it myself and when I need an oil change hopefully they'll be polite enough to change it with a small service fee.

Actually I think it's like if they were offering oil changes for $5 and charging you extra for gas because they weren't making a profit on the oil change. I say let the people who want the oil change pay for it...Let the people who want an air fill or an OW class pay for it...because I sure don't want to buy it for them.

but...they might be worried that they'd get less new people in the door if classes cost more. I guess it works out ok for the new diver, the store and the manufacturer if I'm willing to pay for part of their class and air fills...tough!

I look at this equipment the same way. As far as the manufacturer's getting off the hook, there's not much we can do about that. Until we decide to create our own BC's, make our own regulators, the manufacturer's in general will continue to get our money, whether we buy it from LDS's, non-dealers, or used equipment off ebay that someone else has already given money to the manufacturer for.

I'm with you as well though, just don't really see any way of stiffing them just yet.

Not all manufacturers do business exactly the same. I try t buy from the ones who's practices I find the least offensive.

 

[TravisT]

*sniffles* you killed my rant thread.

 

[TCDiver1]

But is their time they spent 10 minutes showing you the computer worth $400 to you?

I know it sounds like i'm defending the LDS here and that really is not my intention. But your statement way oversimplifies the situation. Its much more complicated than that.

The $400 dollars might not be too much for me considering the ready access to; air/gas or instruction or local knowledge or diving comraderie or scuba trip information or etc. What might be "worth it" to me might not be to you. Value perceived is a very subjective concept but overhead and the mark up which must be charged to cover it is much less so.

Just consider the fact if your LDS goes away, so does your convenient access to all of the above. Mike owned a LDS, ask him how well one survives by selling air and the occasional diving knick-knack. I'm guessing that dog didn't hunt too well.

 

[outlawaggie]

Why do we all continue this debate. It seems to me that this equates to argueing politics. Nobody is going to change their mind.

I will supoort my LDS for 5% more but that's it. If the LDS doesn't make too bad. To save 30% to 100% (in some cases) I will ALWAYS buy online. As far as the "who will fill our tanks" crap I assure you someone will step in and fill the need that is created for air fills, travel, etc.

But this is my opinion. I'm not changing it and from what I've seen on the board nobody else is changing theirs so why can't we just agree to disagree????

 

[MikeFerrara]

Why do we all continue this debate. It seems to me that this equates to argueing politics. Nobody is going to change their mind.

I will supoort my LDS for 5% more but that's it. If the LDS doesn't make too bad. To save 30% to 100% (in some cases) I will ALWAYS buy online. As far as the "who will fill our tanks" crap I assure you someone will step in and fill the need that is created for air fills, travel, etc.

But this is my opinion. I'm not changing it and from what I've seen on the board nobody else is changing theirs so why can't we just agree to disagree????

the debate/discussion goes on because the issue goes on. every day oodles of new divers are certified and start to shop for equipment. They check online and at the shop and...bingo! we have another diver with the same questions and comments.

When I started diving I wasn't on the net and there were very few shops around. I just plunked down the money. Things have changed.