Sorry but that's exactly what the game is. Training is done at break even or often even at a loss just to get people in the door to buy equipment. If I made OW classes a profit center they'd be $1500. At $325 I only have to work 40 hours free and pay my own travel. Well it costs me a little more but who's counting pennies.
The Great local dive shop vs. online debate
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Sorry but that's exactly what the game is. Training is done at break even or often even at a loss just to get people in the door to buy equipment. If I made OW classes a profit center they'd be $1500. At $325 I only have to work 40 hours free and pay my own travel. Well it costs me a little more but who's counting pennies.
... the LDS sockpuppets just LOVE threads like this
Mike, the way to stop this stupidity is to educate people BEFORE they take the class.
If any significant percentage of those who come in the door for a class know before they take the class that LP exists and that the shop will try to rip them off, it will stop immediately.
That's a big part of what I'm doing with my activism, and what perhaps you could be doing too
(Or you could come diving down here where we don't need drysuits all the time
)
MAGELLAN
Contributor
Be honest with your LDS. Nobody beats Leisure Pro as far as I've been able to tell, so put the shopping cart togethor and print out the results. Then, go to your LDS and explain your situation, show him what it will cost you online. At least give them the opportunity to "make it up to you". Usually if your buying quite a bit they can adjust the prices to come much closer than if you buying just one item. Also, they can make up the difference through discounted classes or free airfills etc. I wish I had done this, I bought all my gear through LP and saved about 40% off what the LDS would have charged me ($3000 instead of $5000) I felt embarrased to even ask him to beat that, but he tells me now that he would have worked with me, it would have been worth a try. I would like to support my local businesses too, I just couldn't justify two Grand at the time.
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You wrapped it up very nicely. This is the EXACT reason that the not so nubies got smart & the LDS have less return business.
Sc**w me once its its your fault. You won't get the chance to sc**w me again. ;-0
Shopping Definition - to examine goods or services with intent to buy b : to hunt through a market in search of the best buy.
Busines Definition - a commercial or sometimes an industrial enterprise
PS: I just bought 6 new steel 80' tanks - NOT from LeisurePro but from my LDS. I felt very good about giving my business to the LDS. On the other hand my LDS prices beat LeisurePro out of the water!
Competition Definition - the effort of two or more parties acting independently to secure the business of a third party by offering the most favorable terms
sasdasdaf
Guest
absolutely, that's exactly that i believe. it boggles my mind that dive shops expect that you should buy anything from them. as consumers, we don't owe them anything - most times it comes down to $$$. if i can get the same exact item cheaper elsewhere, you can bet that i'll be buying it there. i encourage everyone to vote with the wallets and only patronize dive shops who 'have a clue' and can add value somehow.
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Value at a fair price?
Interesting concept. I don't mind paying additional for service. I do mind just paying additional for no reason!You work hard for the money. Why not get the most VALUE for it!
PS: Love the statement - Vote with your wallet
MAGELLAN
Contributor
Yes, I feel guitly.
;-0
Ok, maybe not that much
Try making a list of what you want and what you can get if for at LP and bring it in, give them the chance to make it up to you. Otherwise, I don't know, maybe tip the guy giving you the advice? It is a quandry, no doubt about it, I work hard for my money, it's difficult for me to just give it away.
;-0
Ok, maybe not that much
Try making a list of what you want and what you can get if for at LP and bring it in, give them the chance to make it up to you. Otherwise, I don't know, maybe tip the guy giving you the advice? It is a quandry, no doubt about it, I work hard for my money, it's difficult for me to just give it away.
ScoobieDooo
Guest
I feel guilty.......OK, I'm over it now!
I agree that value and price should go hand in hand. It is however very convenient to ignore the value that and LDS brings in one area (air fills, trips, education, try-and-buy) when applied to a purchase in another area. Its a little bit like expecting the discounted price of a hamburger unbundled from a combo-meal.
If the LDS is not adding any value (outside of the specific transaction being decided upon), why are there so many people saying they would by from the LDS if the price is close....obviously there is some value....the question is how much.
As for not understanding why LDS get irrate with potential-customers who don't buy equipment from them, I guess they have the same right to chose their customers as you do to chose your vendors. You are under no obligation to support an LDS and they are under no obligation to support your diving habit.
Using an example from another post, if the cost of a Zeagle is $340 and LP sells it for $389 and the LDS can sell it for even $500 WHY would they want to sell it to you. The risk not being able to make the $500 sale due to being out of stock.
So while I agree that WE can vote with our wallets, I also support the LDS ability to vote with their cash registers.
YMMV
Genesis once bubbled...
... the LDS sockpuppets just LOVE threads like this
Mike, the way to stop this stupidity is to educate people BEFORE they take the class.
If any significant percentage of those who come in the door for a class know before they take the class that LP exists and that the shop will try to rip them off, it will stop immediately.
That's a big part of what I'm doing with my activism, and what perhaps you could be doing too
(Or you could come diving down here where we don't need drysuits all the time
Good point. I try to do exactly that. Even in the flyers we used to give people in asking about classes. I even had a money back gaurantee. Once in the class I touch on lots of things like how reg service works and show them a copy of Vance Harlow's books and where to get a copy. I give a short briefing on the online/manufacturer/lds issue and breifly describe how the industry is structured. I feel it's relevant to the class because equipment, where to get it and how to keep it serviced is part of the class so why not tell them what their options are. I even tell them that a regulator isn't more O2 compatable because it's green and costs more. LOL
the sad news...is that most don't care. A few listen with interest and use the info to their advantage but most are there just to get a card for the vacation they have planned. Most won't ever buy equipment or dive more than once or twice a year on vacation. This is why the system works so well for those who embrace it. Most people are happy with it. It isn't until one gets more involved and their investment grows and they learn a little more do they even notice. As most of you know the current system is not designed for the knowledgeable diver. However there aren't enough of them in any given area like ours to bother with. Doing business in a way that makes them happy costs you with the new folks.
I only had another instructor teach two of my classes in the whole time we were in business. It was an instructor I trained from the beginning so I thought it would be ok. Anyway, one class was totally made up of referal students (doing their dives on vacation). Since the instructor hadn't done it, I decided to stick my nose in the class and talk about how to pick a dive boat and how to pick an instructor. Most students don't like this because I point out that none of them ever asked me anything except "how much?" and "how long". A while later when one of the students was in picking up referal papperwork, I asked if she did some research on instructors. She told me no and that they are a dime a dozed where she was going. I told her you get what you pay for. The point again is that as long as the process resulted in a card and a fun vacation she didn't care. BTW, she was back later complaining about her class but it was too late and there might be a good instructor in the area and they lost out because she wasn't going to put forth the effort to find a good one.
Like they say "You can lead a horse to water..." well and that's just what they are is horses I think. Every one is selling the same card so there isn't any way to promote quality. The card is the product being sold not the training. The goal of the training is to provide a card so the person will buy equipment. Most people are fine with that so the system is valid.
I have often said that retail sales were, in many cases, a direct conflict of interest. I hinted at it before but nobody picked up on it...wasn't the co-founder of the largest training agency also the president of the largest equipment manufacturer for many years. The system works exactly as intended. I'm sure of it.
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