The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[Genesis]

just had this discussion with my LDS. I was looking at buying a Suunoto Cobra, Thier price was $775, LP price $476. They said you pay more for the "warranty" which in most cases is a simple trade, your broken one for a new one. It its not under warranty, then you have to send it off to be repaired. They recently had a guy bring in a defective computer that was bought off the internet for about $400 and on the 1st dive it broke, now its going to cost the guy another $300 to have it fixed plus a few weeks of down time.

LP provides their own warranty that is for at least as long as the manufacturers for those who play the "refuse" game.

Second, theirs is typically an INSTANT SWAP, where with virtually ALL LDSs they will NOT do this, and will force you to wait while they return it to the distributor or manufacturer so THEY can replace it.

Earlier this year I bought the wireless transmitter for my Vytec. The LDS tried this game with me. I asked them if they would swap the unit if it proved defective on an immediate basis - the answer was "no - they'd have to send it back to be either repaired or replaced."

I bought online.

 

[Genesis]

As for your regulator maintenance process, you can go ahead and not replace HP seats, etc. on a yearly basis, but unless you're carrying a pony, I think it's pretty dangerous. It might look fine, but with the temperature and pressure extremes that the HP seat and some other parts of the first stage are exposed to, I'd rather follow the recommendation. A second stage failure isn't a big deal, but most folks don't dive with a first stage backup (other than a buddy). At least with the recent Zeagle HP seat recall issues, those HP seat failures resulted in NO air being delivered. It would not be a fun experience to have that kind of a problem at depth.

Two separate issues.

First, on a piston reg, if the HP seat "fails" it will fail OPEN. It would have to be SERIOUSLY engraved (which you can easily SEE) to be able to "capture" the piston, and I doubt it could actually happen on essentially any balanced piston regulator - simply due to the spring pressure involved (which tends to OPEN the seat.)

A failing seat will result in a freeflowing second, not a failure to deliver air. The freeflow will begin slowly - if you leave a tank turned on for a while without breathing off it, it will hiss a bit. Why? The IP becomes unstable and starts to rise - the reg releases it. Repeat until air is gone in tank. As the seat continues to deteriorate the IP instability will increase until the freeflow is quite violent, but this takes quite a long time to get to the point where its a problem when you're actually breathing off the reg.

The means for preventing this is a regular IP stability check, which takes just a few minutes. You should be doing it with some regularity anyway, as that is a FAR more reliable means of knowing the health of your first stage than ANY "time or dive" based metric, which cannot possibly take into account the total number of cycles of the stage, the average load (in pressure differential) for each cycle, etc. If the IP is unstable, the seat needs to be checked out and probably replaced.

Now some diaphram regs are different in this regard, but this applies to essentially any balanced piston reg. Don't believe me? Take a few apart and look at how they're built, then tell me how they can fail locked up! They are built the way they are for a REASON.

The MAJOR issue with "underhauls" is leakage, usually from the HP O-ring on the piston, but sometimes on some of the other seals. A big part of "why" is that the "must replace" list doesn't include ALL the O-rings, so there's always a chance of missing one that you've damaged either taking it apart or just from tiem. That results in a leak - but is still not a catastrophic failure. The HP O-ring IS on the "must replace" list, but its relatively easy to damage if you're not careful putting the stage back together.

Someone needs to start making up aftermarket HP and LP seats for the common regs, and end the manufacturer madness.

 

[PurduEE]

Genesis once bubbled...
Someone needs to start making up aftermarket HP and LP seats for the common regs, and end the manufacturer madness.

...and just then we reached agreement....

No reason in the world for parts kits to be the prices that they are at. Other than notable exceptions (Sherwood), I think the prices are artificially high (in cases) to push divers towards new models after a few years...

 

[emmagee]

I'm shopping for some new gear for myself and my girlfriend. Within the next week or so I am going to buy one ScubaPro MK25/S600 w/octo, two BC's, either high end ScubaPro or Zeagle, two computers, really looking at the Aeris Atoms 2 of the Aeris AI along with other sundry items. In other words, I'm going to spend a pretty fair amount of cash somewhere. I am ready to get everything except the BC's right now, and will buy those after she does her check-out dives this weekend,

I talked to my LDS yesterday about the reg. and computers, and while he did offer a small discount off list, it was not even close to what I can buy the same items from LeisurePro, etc., for just the first round of purchasing LP is over $400 less and by the time I throw in the BC's, etc., I expect the number to be up in the $700+ difference range. On a whim I check a couple of other LDS's and they were even higher than my LDS.

Yes, I am aware of the warranty issue, but diversdiscount.com offers the price matching against unauthorized dealers, so we can throw that argument out the window for some of the items. And this isn't even take the sales tax I will have to pay into account, and it will be a bit more than any shipping charges.

My problem is that I really want to buy from my LDS. I'm a small businessman myself and I ALWAYS prefer to support local businesses, becuase I know the position they are in. Not to mention the fact that I'd prefer to have things serviced where I buy. Now to be fair, after I talked with my LDS and he gave me his $$, I told him I needed to make a decision on the computers and would get back to him, so he may come down to an acceptable $$ when the happens.

However, in the day and age of the 'net, if baffles me that the LDS's are SO MUCH HIGHER than what identical products can be purchased for elsewhere. Do most folks not check pricing, or do the LDS's figure that's the $$, take it or leave it?

Again, I really want to buy from my LDS and don't expect them to meet or beat the $$, just be competitive. I think that is more than fair to my LDS and still allows me to shop locally. Am I being unrealistic expecting them to be competitive, should I just say thanks but no thanks and buy online? How do they stay in business with industry pricing structures like this? I want to give them my business, but I'm not going to throw $500+ away either. What's the scoop?

 

[jonnythan]

emmagee once bubbled...
I'm shopping for some new gear for myself and my girlfriend. Within the next week or so I am going to buy one ScubaPro MK25/S600 w/octo, two BC's, either high end ScubaPro or Zeagle, two computers, really looking at the Aeris Atoms 2 of the Aeris AI along with other sundry items. In other words, I'm going to spend a pretty fair amount of cash somewhere. I am ready to get everything except the BC's right now, and will buy those after she does her check-out dives this weekend,

I talked to my LDS yesterday about the reg. and computers, and while he did offer a small discount off list, it was not even close to what I can buy the same items from LeisurePro, etc., for just the first round of purchasing LP is over $400 less and by the time I throw in the BC's, etc., I expect the number to be up in the $700+ difference range. On a whim I check a couple of other LDS's and they were even higher than my LDS.

Yes, I am aware of the warranty issue, but diversdiscount.com offers the price matching against unauthorized dealers, so we can throw that argument out the window for some of the items. And this isn't even take the sales tax I will have to pay into account, and it will be a bit more than any shipping charges.

My problem is that I really want to buy from my LDS. I'm a small businessman myself and I ALWAYS prefer to support local businesses, becuase I know the position they are in. Not to mention the fact that I'd prefer to have things serviced where I buy. Now to be fair, after I talked with my LDS and he gave me his $$, I told him I needed to make a decision on the computers and would get back to him, so he may come down to an acceptable $$ when the happens.

However, in the day and age of the 'net, if baffles me that the LDS's are SO MUCH HIGHER than what identical products can be purchased for elsewhere. Do most folks not check pricing, or do the LDS's figure that's the $$, take it or leave it?

Again, I really want to buy from my LDS and don't expect them to meet or beat the $$, just be competitive. I think that is more than fair to my LDS and still allows me to shop locally. Am I being unrealistic expecting them to be competitive, should I just say thanks but no thanks and buy online? How do they stay in business with industry pricing structures like this? I want to give them my business, but I'm not going to throw $500+ away either. What's the scoop?

Vertical price restraints.. ie, price and order restrictions demanded by the manufacturers themselves. This isn't legal in Europe, thus gear prices are generally far more reasonable over there.

Screw the LDS. There's no reason whatsoever to hand them money they didn't deserve.. and they don't deserve it just by existing. If someone else offers you a better deal, why on earth wouldn't you take it?

If you REALLY NEED to support the LDS, determine the amount of money saved by buying online. Divide this amount in half and write out a check to the LDS for that amount.

Everyone is happy.. you still saved a $250 and your LDS still turned a healthy profit. Simple, huh?

 

[XJae]

jonnythan once bubbled...


If you REALLY NEED to support the LDS, determine the amount of money saved by buying online. Divide this amount in half and write out a check to the LDS for that amount.

Everyone is happy.. you still saved a $250 and your LDS still turned a healthy profit. Simple, huh?

That is a very interesting suggestion. Maybe your LDS will service the gear you don't buy from them.

You could also split your order between the two.
Maybe buy the serviceable gear, like the regs, from the LDS.

I for one am not willing to just give any of my hard earned money away. If you want my money you have to earn it, somehow, someway.

So, I don't think you are "being unrealistic expecting them to be competitive".

 

[medical1]

If you want go give away hard earned money - send it my way!

I also work for a small business so I try to throw my business to the LDS when I can. I have only so much money.

LDS are not the airline industry so I am not obligated to bail them out if they can't run a business and still show a profit. :upset:

Do they care about my financial situation & cut there price if I had a bad month?

The difference in the equipment I bought on-line and what my LDS wanted to charge was over $1500 on 2 Zeagle regulators, BCD's and some misc equipment. Did the LDS work that hard to earn that kind of profit? I know I worked hard to earn the money!

I'll save my money by being a smart consumer and buying where the exact same equipment is less expensive

Let me guess - the LDS goes to the most expensive gas station to get gas so they can support that station or do they fill up there cars at the least expensive station?

Save your money - you work hard for it! Use the savings at the LDS to buy some scuba trips or service on the equipment you buy!

PS: Zeagle does not care where you bought there equipment from for service. I know first hand. I bought a 2nd hand Zeagle Concept BC and the cover split. The cost was $15 to ship it to them and it was repaired!

 

[drbill]

Like most businesses, small mom-and-pop LDS'es have much higher overhead per sales dollar than large volume on-line sources. They can't operate on the low margins an Internet dealer can.

As one enjoying a life of early"retirement" and "voluntary" simplicity, I am pretty price sensitive. However I still try to support my LDS when I can because without them where would I get my airfills or spot needs? Servicing is definitely through them.

Dr. Bill

 

[MikeFerrara]

jonnythan is pretty much on the money.

medical1, where should I start. The markup at a dive shop isn't a matter of how hard they work, nor is any other markup. In theory is's a markup on costs combined with a little supply and demand. In this country it isn't required that one do any work at all to earn money. It's sometimes possible to let your money earn you more money.

Manufacturers tell the dive shop what they can charge. They tell them what they can advertise. They tell them that they need to be a full service dive shop offering training, air and service in a retail location with inventory on display before they can even be a dealer. They also tell you how much you must sell in a year and how much it'll cost to buy your dealership. In some cases they even tell what other brands and how much of it you can stock. They also tell you where you can sell. Many manufacturers still will not permit online or mailorder sales. I guess it cost me in the neighborhood of 50k to sell my first reg. As you can see many of these policies limit sales vulume by limiting product selection and the target market. If you can only afford to carry a few brands and you can only sell to walk-in customers your volume will be low but your overhead remains high. the manufacturers leave one little choice. The price simply is what it is.

I just closed my dive shop and moved everything into my house. A few manufacturers have agreed to continue to do business with me but most have told me to go jump. I have everything at my home that I had at the shop and can offer all the same services yet most won't sell to me. With less overhead I don't need as much volume to cover costs and can offer a better price. If you really want to make a statement buy from the manufacturers who allow one to offer better prices and services through being more efficient and buy those products from some one who is doing it out in the open, like me.

I'm trying hard to stick it to some of them but I want to do it in their face not in an alley like some of the non-dealer online merchants. If you ask me where my stuff comes from I'll tell you. If you ask some of the non-dealer online merchants where there stuff comes from you won't get an answer.

I can only speak for myself but I for one sure as hell never asked you to bail me out. I have asked that folks make an effort to understand what's really going on in this screwed up industry but I haven't made much progress.

 

[ScoobieDooo]

Buy from Leisure Pro unless you have lots of money you don't need to worry about!