The Buddy system and separation problems

[dc4bs]

Duh!!

Of COURSE the lawyers would decide that budy teaming you with an idiot is a must.

If you dive solo and die, there is noone to be sued so they wouldn't be able to make any money off it. Provided it's the idiot who survives, they would also tend to be less likely to know how to defend themselves in court properly and therefore more likely to lose (= happy, richer lawyers)...

Well, I suppose they can (and have) gone after training agencys, equip makers etc. But that's harder to get anywhere without real obvious flaws / failures in equipment or documented training failures to point out to a jury.

If it's just a case of your budy (whether you've ever dove with them before or not) going beyond his / her training and panicking themselves into serious problems resulting in death, well then, that's where the lawyers can start to have the real fun.

If they can point a finger at a person and say "It's all his fault!" then it can sometimes be easier to emotionaly sway the jury that you owe the other guys family huge sums of money (that the lawyers get a hefty chunk of) for the rest of your life. Possibly for no better reason than that you didn't die in the incident as well... No matter what you did or didn't do to try to help the victim, you obviously are still breathing, so why aren't they?

-----

I once got paired up with an unknown diver on a boat (I had spoken to her a few times at the dive shop before that).

At the end of a 15-20 foot vis, 80 FSW, 20 minute wreck dive (2nd dive of the day) we were just about to start ascending the anchor line back to the boat. Throughout the dive we we had stayed together and followed "budy rules".

We waited together for another group of divers to go ahead of us (an instructor with AOW students). When they were clear, I looked over at her to see if she was ready and she was gone! I had looked over at her no more than 60 seconds or so earlier and everything was fine. I looked all around, above & below. I didn't see her anywhere.

I quickly swam back a ways down the side of the wreck to see if she had gone back for something and then went over the side to get a look at the bottom to see if she had somehow ended up there (breaking planned depth limits for the dive).

Nothing...

I searched the most obvious places around where I last saw her for a few minutes but, by then I was getting low on air (and rules say if you don't find em real quick, surface) so I had to go up.

All the way to the surface, I was freaking out, thinking that she could be in big trouble somewhere down there and I didn't know where she was.

I made a reasonably "safe" ascent mostly following my computer speed limit beeps but made no safety stop.

When I got to the surface, I found out that she had had an out of controll ascent and that she was already back on the boat.

It ended up that neither of us had any DCS problems from the dive. It's still, by far, the most scared I have ever been while diving.

BUT...

What if something terrible HAD happened to her.

Would I still be the happy diver I am today or would I be in debt to her family and their lawyers for the rest of my life? I risked my own health a bit in surfacing rapidly to go and get help to search for her and I believe there was nothing I could have / should have done differently but I still think about it and am MUCH more carefull about who I will dive with and what the conditions are for dives with unfamiliar budies...

BTW: I later found out that this was NOT the first time she had had this type of problem.

I have been on shalower dives with her since, but never as her budy.

As far as I know, she has not had any bouyancy problems since...

 

[Paulb2]

Hi everyone

Very interesting discussion and great researching advice starfish

It might be helpful to make my position a little clearer. I am carrying out this work as part of a Masters degree in industrial design. Although I am doing some personal research my aim is to develop product concepts and not to generate new knowledge (I’m not ready for a PhD quite yet).
I think I have a reasonable understanding on the existing theories on safety and diving and I do not intend on developing new theory.

Any product concepts will be evaluated against users and technical criteria, for example current safety theory. This exercise (bulletin board research) ensures I have the fullest picture of diving and diver’s perceptions of it. I plan to share the results of my develop ideas with the discussion board when I have reach some conclusions.


It has been tricky getting hold of diving statistics like national and international accident hotspots. I am yet to find published data that proves how safe and effective the buddy system is and how this relates to gear configurations, training levels etc

Does anyone have any stories where the buddy system has saved lives and/or prevented a serious accident? What about stories where the buddy system has failed to save lives or even been the cause of a serious accident?

Thanks

Paul

 

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by Paulb2
I am yet to find published data that proves how safe and effective the buddy system is and how this relates to gear configurations, training levels etc

Does anyone have any stories where the buddy system has saved lives and/or prevented a serious accident?

Hi Paul,
Here's a basic tenet of safety engineering... "If it works it doesn't generate statistics."
It's that simple. The buddy system is out there working all the time, every day. In the safety arena, "no news is good news" is the truth.
Rick (Former Navy ASO)

 

[Paulb2]

Hi Rick

...But Accidents do happen, are you saying that these can't be prevented by the buddy system?

Paul

 

[Ontario Diver]

Originally posted by Paulb2
Hi Rick

...But Accidents do happen, are you saying that these can't be prevented by the buddy system?

Paul

No sir, that is not what he is saying.... what Rick says (I believe) is that you cannot determine how many accidents are prevented by buddy checks, suggestions from buddies, or the buddy being there when a problem occurs. (ie. no news is good news).

I think that you are making an assumption that all divers properly use the buddy system. I believe that if divers dove with 1) proper training, 2) proper equipment for the dive, 3) used proper techniques (one of which is buddy checks and proper use of the buddy system) and 4) proper attitude and fitness - then a very large percentage of incidents would be avoided. That obviously not going to be the case in the near future, the buddy system provides a "second chance" for these divers.


Just from reading incident reports in Rodale's - the term "separated from buddy" shows up very often in diving fatalities.

 

[jimholcomb]

The team approach vs solo -

I will refrain from discussing this issue in the context of a technical environment because I haven't seen anyone advocate solo diving in such an environment (during the course of THIS thread).

Recreational - First, I would like to congradulate Rick on his philosophy that if your buddy is an idiot there is a reversal of the attempt to mitigate the solo risk There are several on the board, myself included, who have long maintained that this is a correct approach to diving.

Now, my personal opinions on some of the issues raised during this thread based on MY personal experiences.

First, the point needs to be made that there are different levels of "recreational diving". A 20' reef dive in Key Largo and a 120' wreck dive off NC's coast are BOTH considered "recreational dives" by most. But, as you may imagine, there is a huge difference in the number of risks that must be mitigated to execute the dive safely. Now a discussion of the risks and how a team approach mitigates those risks.

The 120' wreck of NC -
Narcosis - contrary to what some will say - everybody is narced at 120'. And. contrary to what some would say, you do not build an immunity to narcosis - you become used to it, which, in my opinion, is even more dangerous in that the diver himself may not recognize it and lull himself into a false sense of security. When my buddies and I make such a dive, our dive has been planned on the boat right down to the relative position of each diver - any variation of that plan by a team member and narcosis is considered suspect until communication determines otherwise.
Entanglement - this ones obvious - it is much safer to have your buddy extricate from an entanglement rather than you have to remove gear at 120'. (Keep narcosis in mind).
Equipment failure - although most safety oriented divers will go to great lengths to care for their equipment - failures do occur and on recreational dives very few divers have redundant systems. An emergency ascent from 120' can be NASTY. A swim to your buddy 20' away sounds much better.

The 20' reef in Key Largo -
Narcosis - although one is still "narced" at 20' , many, including myself, don't find it a risk that needs mitigating.
Entanglement - You can get just as entangled at 20' as you can at 120'. Due to the lack of any significant narcosis, though, it is much easier to extricate ones' self from the problem.
Equipment failure - here again, it can happen at 20' as well as 120'. The primary difference is your "buddy" (air) is only 20' away.

It may appear that I think some solo diving is risk manageable - well it may be. But did you know that most diving accidents occur AT THE SURFACE. 20' or 120' doesn't matter that much when that stat is considered.

Boils down to risk assessment - some people are willing to take risks that I would classify as "unsafe". On the flip side I like to cave dive - and many see that activity as an unsafe practice.

Couple other issues - being teamed up with an unknown on a dive boat - YOU write the check. Dive with operations that don't impose a third wheel on your team. Make it quite clear prior to booking that you have your team and there is no room for another. If you are the third wheel - locate a buddy prior to the dives - someone you feel comfortable with - OR DON'T DO THE DIVE! You are much better off sitting on the boat puking your guts up than getting teamed up with the 400 lb slob sitting accross the boat from you with $10,000 worth of dive shop clipped off to him bragging about his combat navy SEAL days. (I'm sure ya'll have met this guy in several forms!)

 

[DameDykker]

I think the answer is "easy":

1. Maintain your equipment and know it well.
2. Train youself
3. Know your limits
4. Find a good body (new or well known)
5. Plan your dive, dive your plan
6. Know you dive site and the local conditions
7. Be prepared that any dive can turn into a solo dive or "less" than solo, if you have to help rescue your body - and you run into your own problems.

DSAO

Pia

 

[Starfish]

2001 Injury & Fatality Report Now Available Online
Only DAN Members can download and view the most recent report online. http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/



Starfish, :doctor:

 

[Starfish]

DIVING MEDICINE ONLINE

Comprehensive updated information about diving and undersea medicine for the non-medical diver, the non-diving medical professional and an excellent reference source for the diving medical specialist.
Includes:
Diving Safety and Accident Management
Dive Accident Facilities
Dive Safety
Emergency Management
HBOT

http://www.scuba-doc.com/


Raglin, J.S. (1998). Psychobiological antecedents of panic in scuba diving. In: Proceedings of the Ninth International Symposium on Aviation Psychology. Vol. 2. Jensen, R.S. & Rakovan, L. (Eds.). (pp. 938-941). The Ohio State University: Columbus.

Raglin, J.S., O'Connor, P.J., Carlson, N., & Morgan, W.P. (1996). Responses to underwater
exercise in scuba divers differing in trait anxiety, Undersea & Hyperbaric Medicine, 23, 77-82.

 

[Starfish]

Sea Grant Study Says Over Half of Scuba Divers Experience "Potentially Life-Threatening" Panic Attacks" 02-02-96
http://www.seagrantnews.org/news/wiscuba.html
Dr. Morgan is the author of three books and over 100 journal articles, and he was founding president of the Division of Exercise and Sport Psychology in the American Psychological Association and is a former member of the Sport Psychology Advisory Committee for the U.S. Olympic Committee. Morgan's diver panic studies were conducted over the past 10 years in a project funded by the University of Wisconsin Sea Grant Institute and published in the December 1995 issue of Sports Medicine.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Further Information Contact:
Dr. William Morgan, Wisconsin Sea Grant Research Scientist, 608-262-7737(O), 608-262-2457 (Lab), E-Mail: sportpsy@macc.wisc.edu