The Buddy system and separation problems

[Paulb2]

Again thanks for the excellent responses

I am unsure when the buddy system was introduced but maybe is it now time to revise it? It doesn’t appear to consistently provide safety but more a perception of safety which is unfounded.

It seems that the people who could be most helpful to a buddy diver in trouble might also be the same ones who can deal with their own problems underwater most effectively i.e. a trained solo diver. Perhaps a diver must be able to help him/herself before they are able to help a buddy?

What is the additional training that is taught to solo divers and should this be incorporated into standard scuba diving training? What would the optimum diving system provide if it were reconsidered for the future?

Do diving organisations openly acknowledge that the buddy system doesn’t work in a number of situations? If they don’t, from an ethical point of view, surely teaching solo diving is a major contradiction to their own beliefs and opinions on safety.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts

Paul

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Paulb2
I am unsure when the buddy system was introduced but maybe is it now time to revise it? It doesn’t appear to consistently provide safety but more a perception of safety which is unfounded.
~~~
It seems that the people who could be most helpful to a buddy diver in trouble might also be the same ones who can deal with their own problems underwater most effectively i.e. a trained solo diver. Perhaps a diver must be able to help him/herself before they are able to help a buddy?
~~~
I look forward to hearing your thoughts
~~~
Paul

Hi Paul....
My thoughts?
I think you are trolling.

What kind of a researcher does his *research* by asking questions on a bulletin board?

What kind of a researcher would come up with such muddle headed conclusions?

My research leads me to believe that you are a solo diver. Just my opinion of course.

 

[Paulb2]

Hi Uncle Pug

The research I have carried out has involved personal interviews with coach divers and indepth study into pychological aspects of diving (panic). The aim of this work is to develop a 'product' or 'system' that could help save lives. The research is relatively new and I have only recently discovered the concept of solo diving.

Asking questions on a bulletin board is one of a number of methods I decided to use which might help to collect qualitative feedback from a range of people who would otherwise not get a say. The 'questions' that I have asked might seem 'muddle headed' but they are only suggestions which I wanted to hear other peoples thoughts on - Just my opinions of course

I haven't reached any 'conclusions' as yet other than maybe the Buddy system can be improved.

I most definately don't have the necessary abilities to solo dive (certified around Christmas time) and so you can appreciate how researching is a proccess of trying to understanding what is right or wrong with what is believed.

It would be really helpful if you outline exactly why my suggestions are so 'muddle headed' so that I can understand the errors of my ways and to allow other divers to contribute their suggestions.


Paul

 

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by Paulb2
Hi Uncle Pug

The research I have carried out has involved personal interviews with coach divers and indepth study into pychological aspects of diving (panic). The aim of this work is to develop a 'product' or 'system' that could help save lives. The research is relatively new and I have only recently discovered the concept of solo diving.

Asking questions on a bulletin board is one of a number of methods I decided to use which might help to collect qualitative feedback from a range of people who would otherwise not get a say. The 'questions' that I have asked might seem 'muddle headed' but they are only suggestions which I wanted to hear other peoples thoughts on - Just my opinions of course

I haven't reached any 'conclusions' as yet other than maybe the Buddy system can be improved.

I most definately don't have the necessary abilities to solo dive (certified around Christmas time) and so you can appreciate how researching is a proccess of trying to understanding what is right or wrong with what is believed.

It would be really helpful if you outline exactly why my suggestions are so 'muddle headed' so that I can understand the errors of my ways and to allow other divers to contribute their suggestions.


Paul

Here's the bottom line, Paul.
Solo diving carries additional risk over buddy diving.
"Buddy" diving with an idiot isn't buddy diving.
The buddy (even a good one) isn't always the best way to solve a problem - especially on shallow open water dives.
Rick

 

[Starfish]

I have an advanced degree in Research Methods, and while using a bulletin board PROBABLY isn't going to be taken seriously by anyone reading any "research" which comes out of these postings, it can be used at best as a starting point, and at worst as a way for raw thoughts to be examined.

I am confused, however, how you have draw the conclusion from just a couple of annacdotal postings that solo diving is a superior way of diving and and buddy diving is inferior?
What makes a couple of anecdotal responses the quintecential authority in dive methods?

It is true that while there are times in which a buddy is not the only method for getting out of a sticky situation, or even the optimal way, the buddy system has proven over the years to be a tried and true method, as there are some situations in which a well trained and attentive buddy can be invaluable.

Perhaps the questions which should be asked by a a researcher are something like:

When did certification for SCUBA become required?
Why did it become required?
Who were the certification agencies which adopted the buddy system? and why?
Under what equipement configuration did it become mandatory?
Do all divers dive with the same configuration?
If not, why not?
Do the different configurations lend themselves to different dive practices.
etc.
etc.

--Starfish, Ph.D.

 

[budgy]

I think part of the problems attributed to diving with a buddy is that many of us don't dive on a regular enough basis to maintain basic skills let alone improve. Please except that the theory taught and the skills not practiced get forgotten. If you are considering developing a new system, perhaps the use of mnemonic keywords and rhymes for basic skills and check lists would help people remember and maintain a greater awarness. I have thought that on the club scene we should consider an annual skill refresher or include systematic skill practice in our dive schedule.

 

[Ber Rabbit]

I have watched June certified OW divers out of the water for the winter lose some of their skills by the time the May diving for AOW came around. Our AOW class always starts with a refresher on basic skills and the first day of OW diving is just to get the students acclimated to the underwater environment again. What about people who get their OW then only dive every other year or so on vacation without a refresher? One problem with scuba diving is once you're certified you're certified for life. There really should be some sort of renewal system, just a quick review of skills every "X" number of years with any DM or Instructor. You wouldn't want something that would seriously inconvenience people who dive on a regular basis but it would be nice to know that all divers had to "re-qualify" every so often.
Ber

 

[Starfish]

I think that falls under different operator discression.
When my husband wanted to get in to the water when I was certified, they asked him how long it had been since he was in the water. If it was more then 4 months, they required a 2 hour refresher class.

But for Paul, my understanding is that people in SCUBA want to continue to be a self regulating industry, which will explain the variation in training programs and what is acceptable to each program. If there aren't too many accidents or fatalities to get the attention of federal regulators, then SCUBA will continue to be self-regulating. As a result, it is to the varous agencies benefit to be as safe as possible.
As a self regulating industry/sport divers can pick and choose which agencies rules they follow, and if one allows solo diving then they can get a card saying they are proficient. Whether proficiency is the best condition under which to dive is often debated.

It then falls on the operators. If an operator wants to make sure to keep their boat licenses and to attract divers, then they follow the guidelines set out by the licensing agencies. In our litigation happy society, operators want to have rules to follow so that they can point to them when there may be an accident or incident.
Operators require the buddy system but the practice varies once a diver hits the water. No operator can force someone to dive in a buddy system and no buddy system is perfect.

This leads to a diver making choices about who they dive with and who they do not dive with. If they have a steady partner or dive within a philosophy such as DIR then the system works. If you dive with different partners and see the different capabilities of other divers, you may choose to figuratively dive solo if not literally by configuring your gear and/or training to be your own best buddy.

Yes, ultimately there is a psychological element to this as well. The biggest motivator is "acceptable risk," which you are seeing voiced in previous replies. For example: How much am I going to risk my life on someone else knowing what to do if I am out of air? Do I accept the amount of risk my buddy puts me in if he is 20 feet away from me? 10? etc.
There have been several studies conducted concern "high risk" sports. If I recall there are even some on SCUBA itself.

So add to the previous list of questions:

What are the safety statistics regarding diving?
Are the statistics even across agencies? gear configurations? traning levels?

Are divers aware of the risks they are taking?
Do they take them in to consideration when they dive? If yes, how?
etc. etc.

I do not believe that a definative study has been conducted regarding SCUBA, and I have my opinions as to why they have not.

If you are seriously looking in to these subjects, then you have allot of library research time and interviewing of angencies and divers to conduct. Contact the US Navy, Dept. of Transportation, US Coast Guard, NASA, NAUI, PADI, SSI, and many others to determine your historical background.

As a diver, I ask that you take the time to understand the sport.

As a researcher, I ask that you conduct a thorough investigation and conduct research before you draw any conclusions, as you have many decades of research to investigate.

Best of luck, Starfish, Ph.D.

 

[TwoBitTxn]

Undercurrent has a really interesting article in Marches publication about buddies and your liability as a buddy. It lists obligations and responsibilities you have to your buddy and a number of court cases where a buddy got sued when a diver died.

No operator can force someone to dive in a buddy system

An operator can tell a diver you will not dive solo. Either buddy up or you will not dive. The undercurrent article cites a court case:Tancredi v. Dive Makai Charters " it is a breach of the standard of care in the recreational dive industry for a dive charter company to conduct a dive without assigning 'buddy' teams"

Tom

 

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by Tom Vyles
Undercurrent has a really interesting article in Marches publication about buddies and your liability as a buddy. It lists obligations and responsibilities you have to your buddy and a number of court cases where a buddy got sued when a diver died.



An operator can tell a diver you will not dive solo. Either buddy up or you will not dive. The undercurrent article cites a court case:Tancredi v. Dive Makai Charters " it is a breach of the standard of care in the recreational dive industry for a dive charter company to conduct a dive without assigning 'buddy' teams"

Tom

So, given the choice of diving with an idiot or diving solo, the lawyers have decided you ought to dive with the idiot.
Typical.
Personally, I use the firm of Smith, Wesson, Colt & Ruger.
Molon labe,
Rick