The Beginner's Mixture

[scubafanatic]

A few points...

• I hope we can agree that Nitrox will never go down below a certain price point, due to the shop labor required to mix it at differing levels.
• The cost of technology always drops, whereas the cost of labor increases
• The OP's question was whether Nitrox would ever become the 'beginners mix', and why or why not. Operative word being 'ever'.

Who would have thought that computers would drop to nearly the same price point as gauges? The gap is less than $100 difference now, and closing. I do honesty expect that rebreathers, over the course of the next 20-30 years, will become ubiquitous. As items become mainstream, they are mass produced, reducing cost and price. Consider the Sentinel...if the price point was less than $200 between it and a mid-line regulator/computer set, would consumers choose it? With safeties built in, would it 'really' need any significant additional training? What if 6-10 major manufacturers got into the game with fully automated rebreathers?

With regards to your position on the cost of O2, two things make O2 consumption less costly on a rebreather vs. Nitrox;

1. Less labor and equipment: No mixing involved
2. Less waste: With OC Nitrox, you are still exhaling unused O2 (in greater quantities than cheap air). With a rebreather, you're only adding enough O2 to raise the pO2 back up to par.

Therefore, I stand by my position that, in time, rebreathers will replace OC and will be cheaper to dive than OC Nitrox. I've run out of time, but I welcome your response.

Mike

.....I'm just not seeing rebreathers 'going anywhere' for the forseeable future...the price...the training (remember you have to get recertified for EVERY single different rebreather model out there.....kinda like having to get recertified if you were to switch from, say, a Scubapro reg to an Apexs reg...crazy!!!) ...the logistics...the complexity. The world's best diving is getting ever more difficult to reach, in some remote/primitive third-world location usually, expecting rebreather 'support' in the middle of nowhere ain't happening...the airlines are getting ever more hostile to divers and their heavy/bulky gear.....high theft potential during travel for such a high dollar item.....to see rebreathers ever become anything more than a microscopic fragment of the diving scene is science fiction!
....on another recent BP/wing versus BC thread/debate...Phil Ellis stated that BP/wing sales represent less than ....1% ......of that market.....a world with less than a 1% market penetration of the lowly BP/wing is nowhere near ready for the mega-geeky rebreather!

 

[it_mike]

.....I'm just not seeing rebreathers 'going anywhere' for the forseeable future...the price...the training (remember you have to get recertified for EVERY single different rebreather model out there.....kinda like having to get recertified if you were to switch from, say, a Scubapro reg to an Apexs reg...crazy!!!) ...the logistics...the complexity. The world's best diving is getting ever more difficult to reach, in some remote/primitive third-world location usually, expecting rebreather 'support' in the middle of nowhere ain't happening...the airlines are getting ever more hostile to divers and their heavy/bulky gear.....high theft potential during travel for such a high dollar item.....to see rebreathers ever become anything more than a microscopic fragment of the diving scene is science fiction!
....on another recent BP/wing versus BC thread/debate...Phil Ellis stated that BP/wing sales represent less than ....1% ......of that market.....a world with less than a 1% market penetration of the lowly BP/wing is nowhere near ready for the mega-geeky rebreather!

OK, but what is the foreseeable future? Who would have thought twenty years ago that computers would become the standard? Now they're on nearly every set of rental gear, and pushed to every student. As I understand it, we now have OW classes that require a computer (SDI).

As eCCR's move to further computer control, I expect the training levels to drop, as well as the price. As to your second point regarding rebreather 'support', what do you do now, in those remote/primitive locations, when your reg fails?

BTW, personal computers you hold in your hand were 'science fiction' just 30 years ago...now look at the iPhone.

 

[gcbryan]

You have to be extremely anal-retentive to use a rebreather and survive for very long. Most people aren't that anal-retentive. This is a bit of an overstatement of course but not much.

 

[DCBC]

You have to be extremely anal-retentive to use a rebreather and survive for very long. Most people aren't that anal-retentive. This is a bit of an overstatement of course but not much.

I think the computer example is a good one. In the late 70's the computers being used at the time required the individual to be a programmer. Even in the mid-80's the operator had to have a reasonable mastery of DOS. Then Windows came along and the rest is history. DOS to Windows 7 in 30 years? Pretty quick.

I'm not too sure about the direction of where it's all going, but I will bet that I'll be surprised (if I live long enough) The fact that CCR is even within the reach of a recreational diver blows my mind. I used them at DCIEM in the 70's and it was cutting edge and the unit was twice as expensive as my home. What a difference 40 years have made!

I think it's reasonable (with computer power increasing) that a "no-brainer" CCR could be developed for the masses. I'm not sure how long it will take, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility, but if my foresight was worth much at all I would of bought Google when it went on the market; I didn't. :-(

 

[Walter]

Who would have thought twenty years ago that computers would become the standard?

Twenty years ago - 1989. Computers were commonplace. Anyone who didn't think they would become standard equipment was either not paying attention, or wasn't diving.

 

[Zieg]

You have to be extremely anal-retentive to use a rebreather and survive for very long. Most people aren't that anal-retentive. This is a bit of an overstatement of course but not much.

Remember, not too long ago it was said that rec divers were not disciplined enough to safely use nitrox.

 

[it_mike]

First, a clarification. I'm referring to dive computers, not PCs.

Twenty years ago - 1989. Computers were commonplace. Anyone who didn't think they would become standard equipment was either not paying attention, or wasn't diving.

Are you stating dive computers were commonplace in 1989?

 

[it_mike]

You have to be extremely anal-retentive to use a rebreather and survive for very long. Most people aren't that anal-retentive. This is a bit of an overstatement of course but not much.

Hence my statements regarding the eCCR adding lots of safety points / self-regulation. It would have to be idiot-proof, with only user control of the gas refills and 'drop-in' sorb cartridges.

Users currently mind their gas, and the system would have to refuse to function if the sorb wasn't replaced with another cartridge.

 

[DCBC]

It seems from the information received to-date that Nitrox (although it is preferred by some) is not the right choice for a beginners mixture, nor will it be in the foreseeable future.

The form that diving will take is inconclusive. Perhaps CCR may come into its own for the majority of divers, once prices come down and technology allows things to become more simplistic.

Thanks to all posters for sharing your opinions.

Wayne

 

[vladimir]

First, a clarification. I'm referring to dive computers, not PCs.



Are you stating dive computers were commonplace in 1989?

I had a Dacor MicroBrain in 1988 or so, certainly by 1989, and I was never at the vanguard of the sport.