Teen fatality - Skaneateles Lake, New York

[tracydr]

I agree. But then, GUE trains their divers to operate in groups (hence 'team diving'). Most agencies train for the buddy system - a pairing of two.

What matters is that your training meets your diving needs... and vice versa.

Nothing in (most) recreational training agency syllabus provides trainee divers with specific knowledge, protocols and approaches for diving in more than a pair of two divers. It is important to note that there are specific skills, drills and protocols applicable to groups larger than 2...

Dive within the limits of your training and experience.... team sizes / buddy versus group can be included in that wise advice...

I was just saying I don't believe it's a riskier configuration. But yes, one should train as a team and dive the way one trains. As I've said before, I think the average recreational dive training does a pretty poor job of teaching team or buddy diving. I think this is something that could really be improved.

 

[Hatul]

The three buddy system has problems for recreational divers, who are known not to preplan very much. What happens is the diver sees another diver and he feels he has a buddy so everything is OK, even when one of the trio has disappeared.

 

[gypsyjim]

A 3 diver buddy team starts to become problematic when the viz is less than ideal.
I have done those dives where all a "wingman" can see is the center diver. Then it becomes the duty of just the center diver to monitor two buddies, while he is the only other diver either wingman can see.
I dread those dives, and try to avoid them, but in clear water I have done many 3 diver buddy teams, and was comfortable with the teamwork.

 

[FinnMom]

I for one am very leery of diving in a group of three. Anyone else feel this way? Are there any stats as to wether this is a more risky configuration?

I like diving in a group of 3 if 2 or all of the group are experienced divers trained to dive as a threesome. With 2 experienced divers we brief the 3rd, less experienced person so they have some understanding about passing siganls and maintaining awareness of all 3 members. With a threesome you are not alone when someone has a problem, in fact you have your full normal budy team's worth of brainpower, gas and other resources to deal with a problem. Putting a diver w/ a problem in the center of a threesome is a really nice way to get him home safe. Clearly the system only works if you have been trained to it and practised using it.

I wouldn't do it with a less experienced diver with poor skills or of whose skills I'm not sure: having one of those dissapearing act divers or otherwise never-a-dull-moment divers plus us two more experienced persons coping with Mr. Surprises while also trying to keep track of each other would be a pain. Although good in a pinch it's a whole lot easier to restrict threesomes to when surprises are going to be the rare exception.
NOTE: I'm not saying this last paragraph was the case in this incident or that I have ANY ideas or opinions on what happened in the accident that was the subject of the thread - I just wanted to address the question of do the rest of us all feel leery of threesomes.

 

[TSandM]

If I am going to dive with a novice diver, I VASTLY prefer diving as a team of three. We put one experienced person on either side of the novice, or if the person is really poorly skilled, we may dive with one person beside the novice and one above and behind in "divemaster" position. Lights allow the two experienced folks to stay in contact with one another, and if the novice loses buoyancy control or heads for the surface, the person diving above and behind is in a perfect position to intercept them.

This accident sounds like a breath-holding incident after either losing buoyancy control or deliberately setting out for the surface. There aren't too many things that will result in a 16 year old being dead at the surface, but gas embolism is one of them.

 

[Kharon]

My understanding is that tech divers usually dive in a team of three, with each member strictly tasked to part of the dive requirements. Each knows their duties & responsibilities. This incident does not appear to be a team dive. I have no idea how extensive their dive plan was.

I agree with TSandM about positioning but I've found an almost total absence of any real discussion of a definite plan in diving with buddies or groups of three or even four. Usually even the buddy check is paid lip service. Unless something is obvious it is missed.

Maybe it's just my area but even when diving with a group led by the instructor that trained me the plan was basically "Follow me." Note, the group, except myself, were newly certified divers. Pretty much the same on boat dives on Bonaire. Divemaster said "We'll descend and swim in that (pointing) direction. When someone reaches 1500psi we'll turn and head back." No assignment of buddies, no real plan, no idea of what to do if someone wandered off or forgot to check their air. Note, the divers were bounce diving, running into each other, and pushing other divers. Divemaster out front paying no real attention.

I think having a real plan is really important when diving in a pair or group. Communication before and during the dive can make a huge difference. My experience is that this is the single most neglected aspect of diving. It might not make a difference in a pair/group that has been diving together for a long time. Between less familiar divers it's essential.

 

[meagicano]

I frequently dive in a group of 3 and none of us have been trained. Maybe I'm too naive to feel uncomfortable about it but two of us have similar experience levels - the third has been diving for much longer but has always stayed at AOW level in terms of formal training - and we operate quite well together. We usually have one person responsible for primary navigation (all our dives are in the St Lawrence), we check our own gauges and just check up on each other. I have and would dive as a three in other configurations (with different buddies, with a novice, etc).

In instabuddy situations (which usually happen on club dive nights for us), usually there are two advanced divers paired with a novice and you will do as described above - novice in the middle, experienced divers in front and behind. Most experienced divers in the St Lawrence know to bring a light and we try to stress it to our newbies but they don't always take our advice.

With respect to the incident described here, I wouldn't assume the fact they dove as three to be a contributing factor but hopefully we will have more information soon to draw better conclusions.

 

[rhwestfall]

Any idea yet of dive plan? Dive profiles? If the deceased truly was on career ;dive #10 as I believe I have read in here, being at 60' in cold water is IMHO a training or "trust me" dive.....

Rental gear? New? New site?

Many questions.....

 

[keller34]

I dive in 3's most of the time. Me and my 2 sons. Difference is we plan our dive, I am the leader, we stay together within 2 arm length at least, and if one of us is not feeling the dive we abort no matter what. We also drill all the time so we are comfortable if something does happen. I think that comes from the Army days back when you could get your tail tore up by the DS and they train you to do your job in your sleep.

I am wondering with this accident, did they do anything like this? It would seem that the experience did not meet the dive, low vis maybe, it was a lake, and possibly equipment failed that he was not comfortable in dealing with, hence the bolt to the surface.

We dive in 1 -2ft vis all the time and sometimes a current that we monitor closely. We have called a many of dives because it was getting bad.

I don't care if you have years and years of experience, some people call being certified and doing just a few dives a year experienced, but did they take the time with a new diver and get him comfortable with problems that can happen? Maybe they just got complacent?

Who knows but them?


http://www.syracuse.com/news/index...._in_diving_accident_we_had_so_many_plans.html


Looks like a training dive?

 

[FM1520]

Any idea yet of dive plan? Dive profiles? If the deceased truly was on career ;dive #10 as I believe I have read in here, being at 60' in cold water is IMHO a training or "trust me" dive.....

Rental gear? New? New site?

Many questions.....

Consider in some areas like here in San Diego, the training dives done for OW cert are at 60' in 50 - 60 degree water probably using the shops rental gear. 60' on dive #10 with two other experienced divers is very reasonable.