Teen fatality - Skaneateles Lake, New York

[DevonDiver]

I for one am very leery of diving in a group of three. Anyone else feel this way? Are there any stats as to wether this is a more accident prone configuration?

Mark Powell's discusses the pitfalls of 'group diving' as part of his 'Solo Diving' talk at the London International Dive Show (LIDS) in April 2012.

[vimeo]49259855[/vimeo]

 

[lindenbruce]

tanksforthememories,

What's up with your posts? Is your system infected? Sorry for the digression on the general topic.

I found Powell's presentation to be very enlightening. B.

 

[tanksforthememories]

Thank you DevonDiver. Mark Powell's lecture was fascinating.

 

[bullfroger]

I think everyone who yaks so much about buddy system should watch this

 

[gypsyjim]

We do not even know from that short news story, if the buddy system failed.
Or if the 3 member team failed.
There is simply not enough information available and anyone who has followed these accidents will do well to remember that the news media seems to be wrong, a lot of the time. Sometimes extremely wrong, depending on who they interviewed.

 

[DevonDiver]

We do not even know from that short news story, if the buddy system failed.

Two possibilities, when it comes to buddy/team-member experiencing a rapid/runaway ascent..

1) The buddy/team were present, situationally aware and close enough to respond; but choose not to.

2) The buddy/team were not present; either not situationally aware or close enough to respond.

There are valid reasons why a diver may not choose to immediately assist a diver experiencing a rapid/uncontrolled ascent. It could be judged an excessive risk to the rescuer - better to not get dragged up yourself (making yourself a potential casualty too) and slowly ascend to render assistance on the surface.

Rescue Divers are, however, taught techniques/options to deal with providing assistance for a panicked diver underwater (shooting to the surface) and/or a diver experiencing uncontrolled ascent. They are also, as mentioned, taught not to endanger themselves in doing so.

Or the buddy system failed because the other divers were (1) not aware soon enough and/or (2) too distant to render assistance in a timely manner.

 

[Abdullah]

I hate diving in threes. I suspect in this accident that the two older divers were both watching over the younger victim and just could not stop the accident, but in general - I find threes too challenging. Some others think that a three is ideal, but I hate having to watch over two others - and wonder if either is watching over me.

I dive in threes on all my deeper technical dives. The three man team concept works well for us. But, it doesn't sound like this incident was a team dive as much as two experienced divers looking after a younger diver.

 

[gypsyjim]

Two possibilities, when it comes to buddy/team-member experiencing a rapid/runaway ascent..

1) The buddy/team were present, situationally aware and close enough to respond; but choose not to.

2) The buddy/team were not present; either not situationally aware or close enough to respond.

There are valid reasons why a diver may not choose to immediately assist a diver experiencing a rapid/uncontrolled ascent. It could be judged an excessive risk to the rescuer - better to not get dragged up yourself (making yourself a potential casualty too) and slowly ascend to render assistance on the surface.

Rescue Divers are, however, taught techniques/options to deal with providing assistance for a panicked diver underwater (shooting to the surface) and/or a diver experiencing uncontrolled ascent. They are also, as mentioned, taught not to endanger themselves in doing so.

Or the buddy system failed because the other divers were (1) not aware soon enough and/or (2) too distant to render assistance in a timely manner.

It certainly is possible for a diver to suddenly bolt for the surface with no warning, and create a situation where his buddy or buddies can not safely "catch up with him". There is not enough information available here yet to know if there was buddy separation, buddy inattention or failure in communication, or a panicked diver who bolted with no warning, and abandoned his buddy team when he needed them most.

From the short news article it does not sound like his buddy team 'lost' their team mate, but that they were not able to respond quickly enough to prevent or control the ascent. The story makes it seem like the team was aware, and responded quickly to the situation, but......
it is just an early news story, and so the 'facts' within the story may not in the end be correct.

As always, at this early in the thread we are stuck playing the "maybe this, or maybe that" game of guessing, with very little real facts to base those guesses on. Hopefully local divers who will eventually have access to real information will choose to share some of those facts, but they are certainly under no obligation to do so in this forum.

 

[tracydr]

I for one am very leery of diving in a group of three. Anyone else feel this way? Are there any stats as to wether this is a more risky configuration?

GUE feels that a group of three is the ideal group size. I've found that they have really thought out most of they're recommendations and rarely find anything they recommend to be a big problem. My experience with groups of three have been positive, if all three are willing to dive as buddies.

---------- Post added October 26th, 2013 at 08:09 AM ----------

Thanks for the input. The news story tells so little, and then we wonder how accurate they are. I take it that no one knows why the young man bolted, nor why he didn't make it?

It was certainly a horrible accident. I read on another story that he and his mom had been diving together. However, per the Special Rules of this forum, Condolences are not allowed here, while we do have a Passings forum where you can start such a thread if you'd like: "(5) No 'condolences to the family' here. Please use our Passings Forum for these kinds of messages."

Bolting makes me think pulmonary edema, equipment failure,panic. Bolting and then quickly passing out-again,pulmonary edema, panic, gas embolism from rapid ascent/panic. This was only his 10th dive so panic is high on the list. He was young and presumably healthy, although young men die every year in Basic Training and sports of sudden cardiac death. I believe, but I'm not sure, that pulmonary edema is slightly more likely in young,thin and fit men.

 

[DevonDiver]

GUE feels that a group of three is the ideal group size. I've found that they have really thought out most of they're recommendations and rarely find anything they recommend to be a big problem. My experience with groups of three have been positive, if all three are willing to dive as buddies.

I agree. But then, GUE trains their divers to operate in groups (hence 'team diving'). Most agencies train for the buddy system - a pairing of two.

What matters is that your training meets your diving needs... and vice versa.

Nothing in (most) recreational training agency syllabus provides trainee divers with specific knowledge, protocols and approaches for diving in more than a pair of two divers. It is important to note that there are specific skills, drills and protocols applicable to groups larger than 2...

Dive within the limits of your training and experience.... team sizes / buddy versus group can be included in that wise advice...