Teamwork

[Lorenzoid]

I was indoctrinated with the team diving mentality in GUE Fundies and firmly believe that unless the dive is planned as a solo dive--and others who may be in the water with you understand that--even rec divers would benefit from team diving. In team diving, you're more than just buddies. You stay together and deal with things together. If one of you has a problem, you all deal with it, and ascend together if necessary. And then there's that saying about the one thing that a solo diver can't take a backup of: a brain. I don't mean to inject solo diving into this; what I mean is that a buddy pair that doesn't act like a team doesn't really have two brains working for both of them.

I realize that in the real world there are such things as insta-buddies, and if someone's only options are to use insta-buddies or quit diving, then team diving is probably not an option, either.

 

[markmud]

Only when it would likely cause 2 people to be injured or killed, instead of only 1. Any other time, not OK at all.

Hi seeker242 and @kensuf

I believe this (above) is the correct philosophical answer. On the reality plane of thought, it should be used as your strategy. There will always be anomalous situations where different tactics should be used.

In a tech diving team, that is performing real tech dives, seeker's rule should be followed.

What about recreational diving? I'm really trying to gauge how pervasive the "selfish" attitude is.

The recreational realm is different. Most people don't follow the buddy diver protocol in rec diving anyways. A diver team who won't choose a dive leader and a wingman on the surface, a team that won't stay within 4 feet of each other (good vis), and a team that does not share the same goals for a dive are not a team. They are solo divers who are, in most cases, not prepared either mentally or gear wise to be solo divers.

A DM asked me on the boat after witnessing my dive buddy and I dive for a day and asked: You spend half your dive looking for your buddy, right? I nodded and agreed on the percentage.

She isn't my buddy in actuality, she is a solo diver who thinks that nothing will happen.

I won't leave her no matter what.

Cheers,
m

 

[CuriousRambler]

I'll second JD's input as an inexperienced diver, and view the opposite side of the coin you're trying to assess. I won't open the can of worms that is "quality of open water instruction," but I think we can all agree on one thing; Most (recreational) agencies and instructors will never even comment on teamwork or buddy awareness beyond a cursory "this is how air sharing works. Always pay attention to your buddy." I think to most divers, it honestly isn't even a real thought. I'm down here to see the reef/fish/whatever. I don't care about that guy.

I've pretty much found myself everywhere on the spectrum, and have realized, through experience rather than instruction, that I want team/partner focused dive buddies, or I want to develop my solo skills to the point I'm comfortable diving alone. My first dive outside OW was the back wall of Molokini, as a Jr. Open Water diver. That was a horrible idea. I got to chasing some creature, and the next time I looked at my gauges I was under 115' and reaching well into my bottom third of air. Glass-clear visibility made it easy to see my dad was blissfully unaware that I wasn't anywhere near him. I'm certain I ascended way too fast to join up with him, we surfaced without issue.

Lesson #1: Pay attention to yourself, dummy.

Years later, I had a regular diving buddy who really shouldn't have been certified. It didn't matter where I was in the water, he would be physically crashing into me the entire dive. I would turn 90* away from his heading, swim 5-10 yards to where I could still see him, then match his course. In seconds, he'd be nuzzling into my armpit like an apologetic puppy. That's about the least concerning aspect of his diving.

Lesson #2: You don't have to maintain physical contact in open water environments.

The next major dive buddy, years later again, wasn't even aware he had a buddy. We lost each other early (my fault as much as his), linked up on the surface, then I spent two dives trying to keep up with him, the latter of the two lasting until he realized he was under 500psi and shot to the surface like a champagne cork without even attempting to look at or communicate what was happening to me.

Lesson #3: Buddies are useless if you're not aware of them.

I may be the only diver around who's willing to say the only good buddies I've had have been the insta-buddies. Those have all been in class, with one exception being a member here at a Redondo Beach Scubaboard event around 2008ish, which to this day was one of the most enjoyable dives I've ever done. I don't recall who it was, but he was alert, attentive, communicative, and just "buddy-ish."

I don't think "team diving" is generally even a concept to most recreational divers. Is that the individual diver's fault? Is it on the training agencies? I dunno. I guess I'm lucky to have been the non-attentive buddy early on, and scared that right out of my system, to have had the overattentive buddy and the frustrations that come with that, and to have had the underattentive buddy to experience those frustrations as well. It kind of makes it easy to conceptualize what an "ideal" buddy might be, and strive to be that way myself.

 

[tbone1004]

So I would like to gauge opinions.

When do you think it's appropriate to leave your buddy?

Is it appropriate for you to leave if your buddy has tons of gas but has some failures (primary light, for example)?

Or do you feel that team diving means staying together to help the team?

Do you dive with others but believe it's acceptable to leave them?

Do you let them know this before you ever get in the water?

saw this on Facebook but decided I wasn't going to respond there.

This is a loaded question with many loaded answers IMO.
First I think there is a point worth mentioning of "abandoning" a buddy, and "splitting up". @ofg-1 told the story of how he had to abandon his buddy. I'm 100% behind that and while I'm sure those 15 mins were rather unpleasant, a single fatality is better than a double. His story has ended poorly many times, and if a perfect example of when to abandon your buddy.
There is another discussion about "splitting up" a team. I.e. you are on your way into a cave and 500ft in someone has a fairly significant gear failure. Say a HP spool completely shat the bed, regulatory started freeflowing, some other failure that is major enough to call a dive, but is only a major nuisance vs. something life threatening. Are you in a team of 3 and the one diver just turns around and waves the other 2 on? Do all 3 call the dive? What happens if you're 1500, or 5000ft back?
Are you in a team of 2 and the other guy is comfortable enough to solo dive and wave on or do you both turn around?
That to me is all dependent on the situation and the divers. I do a lot of teaching, which means I do a LOT of solo diving. My buddies also do a lot of solo diving and we are all comfortable and prepared to solo cave dive, and we all do on a pretty regular basis. I prefer diving with a buddy, but that's more for the social aspect vs. the "team" aspect. That all comes from many years of teaching and having to be fully self-reliant.
I will not "abandon" a diver unless my life becomes seriously threatened by staying with them.
I have no issue "splitting up" with a diver if the circumstances make sense and I am comfortable making the exit on my own. This is something that has been discussed with the divers that I'm willing to do it with and we actually have a specific hand signal for splitting up. The conversation usually looks like "*point at piece of gear with middle finger and make other obscene gestures*", "I'm OK", "Buddy split", "You go ahead", "I turn", "ok?"
If they are ok with it, then they signal ok and wave. If they are not ok with it, then they say "no", "buddy together", "turn".
The list of people I'm ok with that process though is VERY small and if I'm not diving with them, then the conversation doesn't even come up.

Controversial? Obviously, but it works for us. Last example of it happening was last month. Had 2x teams of 2 doing the same dive. One of them had a CCR issue and it wouldn't pass the 1.6/20ft check. He waved us on and we finished the dive as a team of 3. He stayed in the Blue Room for a few minutes trying to sort that out, but we were already past the sign by the time he was on his way out. That obviously is much less extreme, but we have had a few other dives over the years where one bailed at 500-1000ft and exited on their own. Don't think it's ever happened where a solo diver continued on, in that case it's always been to just turn around together. If we're a good ways into the dive though, usually it's just a "turn" signal.
In open water, I pretty much only ever solo dive or I'm teaching so the situation never really comes up.

 

[axluba]

Thanks for sharing these stories, it’s very instructive and some good food for my thoughts! Keep’ em coming!

 

[kensuf]

saw this on Facebook but decided I wasn't going to respond there.

This is a loaded question with many loaded answers IMO.
First I think there is a point worth mentioning of "abandoning" a buddy, and "splitting up". @ofg-1 told the story of how he had to abandon his buddy. I'm 100% behind that and while I'm sure those 15 mins were rather unpleasant, a single fatality is better than a double. His story has ended poorly many times, and if a perfect example of when to abandon your buddy.

Agreed. There's a sad story of a boyfriend and girlfriend that had to split up under similar circumstances. Only one made it home. I imagine he frequently thinks about "what if" but it would have been worse to have a double fatality.

There is another discussion about "splitting up" a team. I.e. you are on your way into a cave and 500ft in someone has a fairly significant gear failure. Say a HP spool completely shat the bed, regulatory started freeflowing, some other failure that is major enough to call a dive, but is only a major nuisance vs. something life threatening. Are you in a team of 3 and the one diver just turns around and waves the other 2 on? Do all 3 call the dive? What happens if you're 1500, or 5000ft back?
Are you in a team of 2 and the other guy is comfortable enough to solo dive and wave on or do you both turn around?
That to me is all dependent on the situation and the divers. I do a lot of teaching, which means I do a LOT of solo diving. My buddies also do a lot of solo diving and we are all comfortable and prepared to solo cave dive, and we all do on a pretty regular basis. I prefer diving with a buddy, but that's more for the social aspect vs. the "team" aspect. That all comes from many years of teaching and having to be fully self-reliant.

So.. What if you decide to split up the team of 3 and send the person that had the issue on his way home alone and he had a second or third issue as part of a cascade failure?

I can think of at least two cases where a person having some sort of issue was basically escorted to within 20' of the surface and then left by themselves and they didn't make it.

I will not "abandon" a diver unless my life becomes seriously threatened by staying with them.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that two fatalities is better than one.

I have no issue "splitting up" with a diver if the circumstances make sense and I am comfortable making the exit on my own. This is something that has been discussed with the divers that I'm willing to do it with and we actually have a specific hand signal for splitting up. The conversation usually looks like "*point at piece of gear with middle finger and make other obscene gestures*", "I'm OK", "Buddy split", "You go ahead", "I turn", "ok?"
If they are ok with it, then they signal ok and wave. If they are not ok with it, then they say "no", "buddy together", "turn".
The list of people I'm ok with that process though is VERY small and if I'm not diving with them, then the conversation doesn't even come up.

Controversial? Obviously, but it works for us. Last example of it happening was last month. Had 2x teams of 2 doing the same dive. One of them had a CCR issue and it wouldn't pass the 1.6/20ft check. He waved us on and we finished the dive as a team of 3. He stayed in the Blue Room for a few minutes trying to sort that out, but we were already past the sign by the time he was on his way out. That obviously is much less extreme, but we have had a few other dives over the years where one bailed at 500-1000ft and exited on their own. Don't think it's ever happened where a solo diver continued on, in that case it's always been to just turn around together. If we're a good ways into the dive though, usually it's just a "turn" signal.
In open water, I pretty much only ever solo dive or I'm teaching so the situation never really comes up.

Do your buddies know that this is a possibility? Have you had specific conversations with them and told them "if I'm having a problem, I'll wave you off and you go on without me?"

More importantly, have you had a conversation that says "if you have a problem, I'm going to go do my own thing?"

 

[rjack321]

The only time I consciously acknowledged that I was ok being left behind was in the Great Lakes a couple of years ago. We were doing 2x 190ft dives per day and I was pretty "bleh" just running my conventional deco. I decided to do an extra ~3-5mins on dive 1 and an extra ~10mins on dive2 every day after my computer cleared (I run 50/75 GFs) which made a dramatic difference in my post dive energy levels. I told my buddy and the captain. They could see me at ~15ft just hanging out and there was only so much room on the ladder and the deck at any one time anyway. I wasn't spiking my fO2 much that shallow and felt ok being "alone" plus I was technically clear anyway.

"Buddies" have left me without conscious acknowledgement far more than they ever did so intentionally. But our vis here is "bad" and it doesn't take but a second to lose someone - especially on a scooter. If they actually look for me, I am far more forgiving of the fact that we got separated than if they shrug and figure I'm fine while I spend the rest of my dive looking for them.

 

[Marie13]

I posted about this before. Wreck dive that was my deepest to that date, first time diving that one. Asked buddy to stay close. He did not. I was getting narced bad. Couldn’t get buddy’s attention. Next time something happens like that on a recreational dive, I’ll just ascend and maybe go to the base of the mooring line.

 

[tbone1004]

Agreed. There's a sad story of a boyfriend and girlfriend that had to split up under similar circumstances. Only one made it home. I imagine he frequently thinks about "what if" but it would have been worse to have a double fatality.

So.. What if you decide to split up the team of 3 and send the person that had the issue on his way home alone and he had a second or third issue as part of a cascade failure?

I can think of at least two cases where a person having some sort of issue was basically escorted to within 20' of the surface and then left by themselves and they didn't make it.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that two fatalities is better than one.

Do your buddies know that this is a possibility? Have you had specific conversations with them and told them "if I'm having a problem, I'll wave you off and you go on without me?"

More importantly, have you had a conversation that says "if you have a problem, I'm going to go do my own thing?"

If that person has said they're OK to exit, and we believe they are, then that's something we will have to live with.
I thought I said in the response that with the divers who I/we are comfortable with executing that change of plan, we have had the discussion. The decision on making the solo exit starts with the diver that has to call the dive. They have 3 options. Thumb the dive, turn the dive, or wave the others off and exit. The first two are non-negotiable, everyone exits together. The third one becomes a judgement call from the ones being waved off to ask themselves "do I think they can make the exit solo?" If the answer is no, then your response is a turn signal or a thumb and you go out together.

Your last sentence is exactly why I didn't respond on the wild west that is Facebook and why I prefaced my response with it being both a loaded question and having loaded answers. What you put in quotes is quite misleading because it implies that if you have a problem and call the dive, I'm going to wave you off and keep going. That's not an option. Our discussion is about waving off the other divers to continue on because you have a problem, then the other divers get to decide if they agree with that. If they do, then go ahead, if they don't, then you exit together.
It is not something I would even talk about with the vast majority of people I dive with, but if I were diving with say you and pick a person comparable to you as a diver, and we had a conversation that says if something simple and annoying happens that would cause me to turn the dive, are you ok if I wave you on? If you say no, end of discussion. If you say yes, and at say 2000ft on the way in I have 2 cells **** the bed on my CCR. I'm not going to continue the dive, but I'm also not in any sort of situation other than a major nuissance. Flash you two, signal that cells are f*cked and bail out. Ask if you're ok splitting the team and I turn. Let's you two continue the dive together, I'm more than capable and comfortable solo diving at 2000ft, and we head out. That is me actively waving you to go on, and I'm going to exit. That's a VERY different discussion than you two deciding to leave me.

 

[Ripley]

Although PADI-certified, I'm being taught (or is it "drilled") the GUE-way.
You dive as a TEAM. Whether it's two, three, ... divers: it IS a TEAM and you watch over each other at all times.
We/you/they are in this together.