Question Teaching OW with backplate and wing from the very beginning ?

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Roger Hobden

Roger Hobden

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First, they had to doff and don, their gear mid-water, not touching the bottom or the top. Most stayed within 2 to 3 foot. Then they had to do a proper descent and
I had my initial training with NASDS in the 90's and we were never required to remove and put back on our gear underwater, much less in mid-water.

I always wanted to ask but never bothered up till now: what would be the purpose of such an exercise ?

In what real-life situation would you even need to to do this ?
 

James79

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I had my initial training with NASDS in the 90's and we were never required to remove and put back on our gear underwater, much less in mid-water.

I always wanted to ask but never bothered up till now: what would be the purpose of such an exercise ?

In what real-life situation would you even need to to do this ?
Midwater: entanglement or to correct a gear problem
Top water: hand gear in or out of the boat.
 

Boarderguy

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I had my initial training with NASDS in the 90's and we were never required to remove and put back on our gear underwater, much less in mid-water.

I always wanted to ask but never bothered up till now: what would be the purpose of such an exercise ?

In what real-life situation would you even need to to do this ?
Don and doff in water is a skill that's used most often when entangled (open water rec diving). More often than not you can cut yourself free, occasionally the invisible fishing line will get stuck on your 1st stage and valve out of reach. Your buddy can cut you free or unwrap it but they are then exposed to the entanglement. Cut what you can, remove the rig and untangle it while keeping your primary in your mouth, replace rig and keep diving.
 

CAPTAIN SINBAD

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I am superficially familiar with b/w. So, how would I, for example, learn backplate and wing diving? Retake an AOW class with that in mind? Or, is this in the tech diving realm of $CUBA?

I often get students who purchase BP-wing and try to assemble and learn it themselves by watching internet videos. I have had to totally pull apart their set up and reconfigure it with rings and buckles in the right place. Otherwise, they will continue to dive with poorly configured set up and not know about it.

Furthermore, BP wing by itself is one thing but to develop skills in that configuration is quite another. It allows long hose skills and precision training that is normally reserved for this configuration. My advice would be to not see BP-wing as just a "purchase" but a transition of your skills as a diver, in which BP wing is an instrument. Once you perceive it THAT way, then it would be wise to either take GUE Fundies or UTD Essentials or someone who teaches Intro to tech and have them purchase and set a wing up for you.

Good luck!
 

Eric Sedletzky

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I often get students who purchase BP-wing and try to assemble and learn it themselves by watching internet videos. I have had to totally pull apart their set up and reconfigure it with rings and buckles in the right place. Otherwise, they will continue to dive with poorly configured set up and not know about it.

Furthermore, BP wing by itself is one thing but to develop skills in that configuration is quite another. It allows long hose skills and precision training that is normally reserved for this configuration. My advice would be to not see BP-wing as just a "purchase" but a transition of your skills as a diver, in which BP wing is an instrument. Once you perceive it THAT way, then it would be wise to either take GUE Fundies or UTD Essentials or someone who teaches Intro to tech and have them purchase and set a wing up for you.

Good luck!
A person doesn’t need to take GUE fundamentals to be able to use a BP/W effectively. A person doesn’t need to go to a long hose primary donate either. There are people who just swapped out their jackets with a BP/W and use the same configuration they used prior. You can use an Air2 with a back plate wing, you just need to change out the inflator hose with a longer one, and you can also use a standard octo style configuration if you so choose.
BP/W doesn’t mean a conversion into a tech style configuration. A plate and wing is just a simpler version of a BC, that’s it.
No religion behind it.
Carry on.
 

kelemvor

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You can use an Air2 with a back plate wing
I do. I also use hoseless AI. It feels nice to have fewer hoses protruding from my tank. One hose to the left for my air2. One hose to the right for my primary regulator. That's it.

As you said, there's nothing restrictive about a bp/w. Actually, it's the opposite. You can use the BCD however you see fit. With a standard BCD, you're limited to using it as the manufacturer intended for the most part. You'll also have to replace it if you gain or lose weight. I've lost 125lbs since I started diving and I've used the same bp/w for the majority of that time.

If you're buying your bp/w from a local dive shop, you don't even need to know how to set it up. The shop will usually do that for you when you purchase.
 
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Roger Hobden

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Don and doff in water is a skill that's used most often when entangled (open water rec diving). More often than not you can cut yourself free, occasionally the invisible fishing line will get stuck on your 1st stage and valve out of reach. Your buddy can cut you free or unwrap it but they are then exposed to the entanglement. Cut what you can, remove the rig and untangle it while keeping your primary in your mouth, replace rig and keep diving.
Thanks !
 

boulderjohn

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The doff and don underwater does have some practical benefit as described, but many years ago in another SB thread, someone who as involved with RSTC said the primary purpose was for the student to demonstrate overall skill and comfort, similar to the equipment exchange for the DM class.

Once I was fully converted to teaching students while neutrally buoyant, I demonstrated the skill in mid water, but I told them they could do it in mid water or in contact with the floor of the pool f they preferred. About 90% did it mid water. By the time they had reached that part of the pool sessions, they had pretty good control of their buoyancy.
 

CAPTAIN SINBAD

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A person doesn’t need to take GUE fundamentals to be able to use a BP/W effectively. A person doesn’t need to go to a long hose primary donate either. There are people who just swapped out their jackets with a BP/W and use the same configuration they used prior. You can use an Air2 with a back plate wing, you just need to change out the inflator hose with a longer one, and you can also use a standard octo style configuration if you so choose.
BP/W doesn’t mean a conversion into a tech style configuration. A plate and wing is just a simpler version of a BC, that’s it.
No religion behind it.
Carry on.

I agree with a lot of things. One of my students was an Open Water diver who purchased a BP wing right after OW certification and decided that he could "just dive with it." The wing was a small travel wing with around 20 lbs of lift and it was being used with a heavy steel plate, steel tanks and weights that were too heavy. Another one came to take a class with with D rings that were literally in the armpits and weight pockets had no stoppers so that would slide all the way to the front of the stomach.

With a recreational BCD, manufacturer has made a lot of decision for you. BP-wing requires a user who understands wing lift / buoyancy characteristics of different plates and tanks etc. At this point, there is no formal training that would take someone who is at Open Water level and give them enough know how where they can make educated and informed decisions about how to set a wing for their own diving needs.

I totally agree that GUE Fundies and UTD Essentials is not the only way. I teach BP wing set up to my students and I am not affiliated with either of those. These two courses were designed to take a recreational diver, who knows jackets and snorkel, and introduce them to a higher skill level with BP wing. So you have to imagine yourself as a fresh open water diver and with that level of knowledge you want to set up a BP wing that you acquired from ebay and are now making decisions. There is a learning curve after which these things become quite rewarding.
 

Eric Sedletzky

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I agree with a lot of things. One of my students was an Open Water diver who purchased a BP wing right after OW certification and decided that he could "just dive with it." The wing was a small travel wing with around 20 lbs of lift and it was being used with a heavy steel plate, steel tanks and weights that were too heavy. Another one came to take a class with with D rings that were literally in the armpits and weight pockets had no stoppers so that would slide all the way to the front of the stomach.

With a recreational BCD, manufacturer has made a lot of decision for you. BP-wing requires a user who understands wing lift / buoyancy characteristics of different plates and tanks etc. At this point, there is no formal training that would take someone who is at Open Water level and give them enough know how where they can make educated and informed decisions about how to set a wing for their own diving needs.

I totally agree that GUE Fundies and UTD Essentials is not the only way. I teach BP wing set up to my students and I am not affiliated with either of those. These two courses were designed to take a recreational diver, who knows jackets and snorkel, and introduce them to a higher skill level with BP wing. So you have to imagine yourself as a fresh open water diver and with that level of knowledge you want to set up a BP wing that you acquired from ebay and are now making decisions. There is a learning curve after which these things become quite rewarding.
All true.
BP/W is still sort of in it’s infancy as far as being introduced to the general public. The majority of dive shops around the world still don’t carry them or know much about the finer points of set up, adjustments, etc.
it will take time.
With that said, most shops will not be selling BP/W as being for tech diving per say, they will be selling them in a recreational context but may mention casually that they can be used all the way up through all levels of tech diving. I would think that it would be a boon not a detriment and give the unit some street cred that it’s actually ligit and “professional” (for whatever it’s worth), and not just using the P word thrown around willy nilly like so many companies do just for anything. The word seems to have lost meaning.
In this case they really are pro, just look at the extreme dives being done with them in the tech world.
The beauty is they can be used from day one on the most benign basic fun dives too! And they work fantastic! And for the same price or cheaper than a jacket.
It doesn’t get any better than that!
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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