Teaching contradictions: differing dive training philosophies

[boulderjohn]

No, I mean vertically in the OW dives. As I recall, my instructor (PADI) had us (7 students) on a platform at about 25 ft. One at a time he escorted us to the surface as we demonstrated a CESA. Made sure we inflated our BC and were OK and then he descended to pick up the next student. Do you not do that in your classes? I thought that was (is) a PADI requirement.

It is a PADI requirement. He is not a PADI instructor.

I do remember my vertical CESA exercise during training in 1994. I clearly remember how easy and unstressed it was. I thought it contributed measurably to my comfort UW. I'm just not sure I would have gotten the same thing with a horizontal exercise.

EDIT: After thinking about this a bit more, I am surprised that there are training agencies that do not require this exercise. After all, one of the greatest risks for divers is holding your breath while ascending. You can talk about it all you want but it is an easy mistake to make and quite natural as panic sets in. This exercise at least has divers demonstrate the critical skill of exhaling during a CESA.

I have written in the past about problems with the horizontal CESA, which violates a whole lot of concepts of instructional theory. I believe vertical CESA instruction is important. However, several agencies disagree. Netdoc is talking about one (NASE) that only does the CESA horizontally. I know UTD does not teach it at all, and I believe that is the same for BSAC.

 

[flots am]

I have written in the past about problems with the horizontal CESA, which violates a whole lot of concepts of instructional theory.

You mean like the part about it being a completely different skill?

I have to say that this is the first time I heard that it's not a requirement anymore, and I'm pretty much astonished. The time to learn how to do one is not during an emergency.

flots.

 

[Edward3c]

…
I know UTD does not teach it at all, and I believe that is the same for BSAC.

Correct BSAC do not require students to practise this skill. It is considered a greater risk of injury undertaking the exercise during training than doing it for real. It is covered in theory lessons (OT6: What Happen if …) under Rescues – Free Ascent.

However, we do require students to remove their weigh-belts – in 1 to 1.5m depth water – to practise this important self-rescue skill. It is a requirement for all diver grades: Ocean Diver, Sports Diver, Dive Leader and Advanced Diver. There have been a number of fatalities over the years where a diver successfully reached the surface, but was unable to maintain positive buoyancy. When the body has been recovered it was found they were still wearing their weight-belts.

Kind regards

 

[boulderjohn]

You mean like the part about it being a completely different skill?

That and more.

With no benefit of expanding air, it is much harder to complete the skill as required, which forces the instructor to teach otherwise unnecessary means of limiting the exhalation so the student can make it all the way. This teaches the student that the CESA is harder than it really is in the open water, and makes it more likely that the student will panic and believe he or she will fail if doing it as taught. There is also little change in buoyancy, even if going from the deep end of the pool to the shallow end of the pool. In fact, most buoyancy change is the opposite of what happens in real life if it is done in a shallow pool. When I did my IE, I lost a point demonstrating the CESA because in going 30 feet perfectly horizontally in 3 feet of water, I lost buoyancy so much by exhaling that my knee scraped the bottom of the pool near the end. I was docked the point for losing buoyancy, which was nearly impossible to avoid. (Every member of our class lost that point.) In real life, the problem is avoiding becoming too buoyant too quickly, not losing too much buoyancy through exhaling.

Finally, if the student struggling to avoid inhaling during that horizontal swim does give in and inhale just before the end, we are supposed to fail the student and start over. What happens in real life? As the OOA diver ascends, ambient pressure decreases. That means that after a short while, the regulator will find tank pressure once more above ambient pressure, and it will be able to deliver air again. That means that if the OOA diver inhales near the end of the ascent, the OOA diver will get the desired air. We should reward the student for doing the right thing by inhaling, but instead we punish the student for doing the right thing. This incorrectly teaches the student that the tank cannot deliver air during the ascent, and it falsely teaches the student that having the regulator in the mouth serves no purpose.

 

[fjpatrum]

That and moire.

With no benefit of expanding air, it is much harder to complete the skill as required, which forces the instructor to teach otherwise unnecessary means of limiting the exhalation so the student can make it all the way. This teaches the student that the CESA is harder than it really is in the open water, and makes it more likely that the student will panic and believe he or she will fail if doing it as taught. There is also little change in buoyancy, even if going from the deep end of the pool to the shallow end of the pool. In fact, most buoyancy change is the opposite of what happens in real life if it is done in a shallow pool. When I did my IE, I lost a point demonstrating the CESA because in going 30 feet perfectly horizontally in 3 feet of water, I lost buoyancy so much by exhaling that my knee scraped the bottom of the pool near the end. I was docked the point for losing buoyancy, which was nearly impossible to avoid. (Every member of our class lost that point.) In real life, the problem is avoiding becoming too buoyant too quickly, not losing too much buoyancy through exhaling.

Finally, if the student struggling to avoid inhaling during that horizontal swim does give in and inhale just before the end, we are supposed to fail the student and start over. What happens in real life? As the OOA diver ascends, ambient pressure decreases. That means that after a short while, the regulator will find tank pressure once more above ambient pressure, and it will be able to deliver air again. That means that if the OOA diver inhales near the end of the ascent, the OOA diver will get the desired air. We should reward the student for doing the right thing by inhaling, but instead we punish the student for doing the right thing. This incorrectly teaches the student that the tank cannot deliver air during the ascent, and it falsely teaches the student that having the regulator in the mouth serves no purpose.

In my PADI OW course, I don't believe I ever did a vertical CESA during the OW dives. (I did my OW dives by referral here in VA, though, so I can't blame the original shop's course.) We did them horizontally in the pool and the instructor simply told us "if you can do it horizontally, you'll be able to do it vertically because it will be easier with expanding air". I have since practiced 2 CESAs. The buoyancy variance was definitely the hardest part I had to deal with (not well expressed during my OW course) in my practice runs.

 

[boulderjohn]

In my PADI OW course, I don't believe I ever did a vertical CESA during the OW dives. (I did my OW dives by referral here in VA, though, so I can't blame the original shop's course.) We did them horizontally in the pool and the instructor simply told us "if you can do it horizontally, you'll be able to do it vertically because it will be easier with expanding air". I have since practiced 2 CESAs. The buoyancy variance was definitely the hardest part I had to deal with (not well expressed during my OW course) in my practice runs.

Then your instructor is guilty of a standards violation. It is not only a requirement, it is required to be done next to an ascent line so that the instructor can halt a runaway ascent.

 

[Thalassamania]

There's probably a lot you don't know.

Yup.

So you teach your students that they can do 8+ bounce dives at the end of their dives with impunity? In addition, you expect your students to understand that they must keep their 8+ bounce dives to a maximum of 24 ft??? You have failed to grasp the point: as an instructor you should be setting the best example. If you are telling your students to dive one way and you dive another, it only creates confusion. Dance around it all you want, but the better instructors set a great example for their students to follow. I'm surprised you disagree with this.

No ... I just don't issue meaningless warnings that they'll find out, someday, were wrong. That tends to shake their confidence when you do that. Just remember, almost every heroin addict stated off drinking milk.

Dude. Are you just arguing just to argue? Obviously, the TERM Warhammer was coined right here on ScubaBoard. It was meant as a bit of humor to demonstrate that discussions such as these have actual value in that they reach a lot of people. Maybe they don't have any value to someone who thinks they know it all, but for the rest of us mere humans, it's a good thing.

No, it came off as just one more "claim" to a new discovery that wasn't, been a whole lot of that going on of late.

So, you routinely do 8+ bounces on every dive? Wow. That's amazing. I teach and practice one descent and one ascent followed by a reasonable surface interval.

I don't remember saying that, why must you make stuff up that has nothing to do with the discussion?

Start your own thread then. This one is about exceeding your training. It's a valid question and does not need to be hijacked.

It is a valid question that should start with an answer as to what, "exceeding your training," is and why and to what degree it matters.

Horizontally: in the pool. No need to do them in OW. I would rather devote more time to buddy awareness and gas planning.

"No need to do them in OW." That's your view, one that I find woeful inadequate. I also did not realize that it was an either or situation, that you had to choose between competent emergency ascents and buddy awareness and gas planning. Somehow, most of the instructors I know manage to get all three done.

I don't do them in OW. It's hard on the instructor and instills bad habits into the student. CESAs should be the last resort. The way they are being taught today, they have become the first option. Let's face it, kicking to the surface is pretty ingrained into our psyche already. We don't need to re-enforce our flight mechanism here. As for confidence, I would rather my students build confidence by having perfect trim and buoyancy. They'll hoover less, have control of their dive gas and thus avoid having to imitate an ICBM on it's way to the surface.

"Kicking to the surface is pretty ingrained into our psyche already." I'd dispute that claim, the critical word in "controlled" and that is what needs to be taught so as to overcome what is "ingrained into our psyche." We do not need to "re-enforce our flight mechanism," we need to teach our students both how to control an emergency ascent and that they can depend on themselves to reach the air at the surface with minimal risk. Without both abilities they must dive as technical divers, something I suspect that is way beyond the ken your entry level students. Again, I fail to see that there needs to be a choice between "confidence" exercises and exercises that perfect trim and buoyancy. Too many tradeoffs and compromises for me, I would not want my family members to be trained that way.

In an out of air and out of buddy experience, you'll find that the student will be ascending as fast as they can in spite of all your training.

That has not been my experience.

How many horizontal CESAs do your students do in the pool?

One, horizontal CESAs are, IMHO, a waste of time,

For that matter how many vertical CESAs do your students do in OW? If you think just one CESA makes them ready, you are being overly optimistic.

I'd estimate that a student in my class completes on the order of 50 to 100 ascents, most of them buoyant, as part of the free diving doff and don, scuba doff and don and buddy breathing doff and don exercises.

Only one of most anything, incuding a horizontal CESA is, IMHO, a waste of time. Why would you do only one?

I think BoulderJohn has it down rather clearly.

 

[BDSC]

Stop the presses! If I am reading this right, are folks saying PADI requires a student to do a vertical CESA in OW but there are other agencies that don't? From reading ScubaBoard, I would never have believed that any agency had "watered things down" even more than PADI.

 

[nimoh]

Stop the presses! If I am reading this right, are folks saying PADI requires a student to do a vertical CESA in OW but there are other agencies that don't? From reading ScubaBoard, I would never have believed that any agency had "watered things down" even more than PADI.

perhaps PADI feels that its graduates will be more likely to need a CESA (kidding - I am a PADI graduate)

 

[Thalassamania]

Stop the presses! If I am reading this right, are folks saying PADI requires a student to do a vertical CESA in OW but there are other agencies that don't? From reading ScubaBoard, I would never have believed that any agency had "watered things down" even more than PADI.

Yes, there are. NASE is an interesting case, they have taken a few huge steps forward (well, actually huge steps back into the past to proven methods like teaching while neutral) but combined them with some, IMHO, logically indefensible standards like no free diving skills, no snorkle use and no emergency ascent training (they make the pretense that a horizontal exhaling swim is "emergency ascent training," wink, wink, nod, nod).