LOL, I don't mind the slogan. They're just copying Apple Computer's former "Think Different" campaign, after all. Who's gonna argue with Apple given the success they're enjoying?
Teach Different. Dive Different.
- Thread starter NASEHQ
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
- Messages
- 97,509
- Reaction score
- 98,616
- Location
- On the Fun Side of Trump's Wall
- # of dives
- 2500 - 4999
What do you suppose are the percentage of PADI instructors who teach that way?
Your agency ... like mine ... may tolerate instructors who want to put an emphasis on teaching good skills ... but they don't require it, encourage it, or particularly support it ... and as you well know, in some ways they resist it ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
---------- Post Merged at 04:27 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 04:18 AM ----------
The problem isn't the "initial teaching" part ... it's that most never make it to the "quickly progress" part. I can't even begin to tell you the number of times I've gotten students for con-ed classes who can't read a compass without first settling to the bottom on their knees ... because they were never taught to do it any othe way, and it never occurred to them that there even was another way.
Yes, it's easier to start training people skills while kneeling ... but not very much easier. And the pros outweigh the cons when it comes to doing it that way, because there's a short-term gain in teaching someone something new while relying on something familiar (vertical orientation and a sense of gravity), but there's a long-term loss in having to then have them "unlearn" the practice in order to learn it a different way.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
---------- Post Merged at 04:35 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 04:18 AM ----------
SeaCobra -- I totally agree with you. I see no problem with the initial teaching of the basic skills (and to me that is breathing underwater, removing/replacing a regulator, flooding/clearing a mask and sharing air) while the student is flat on the bottom. In fact, that is how I do it (therefore it MUST be right!). If the student gets into the "fin pivot" position (i.e., body off the bottom with fin tips on the bottom), great -- likewise if the student is off the bottom, neutral in the water column, great. BUT, I just let the student pick the position AS LONG AS they are flat and horizontal.
Once the students get the basic skills then they can add being in the water column. That is the end point, not the starting point.
Quero -- thanks for the link. In reading the material, does it really sound like this is all that different from the standards of other agencies?
... it's what I do as well ... start in the pool with a fin pivot and progress to hover. Seems to be a reasonable progression given that what you're really trying to do is reorient the student from thinking vertical to thinking horizontal. For that reason, we don't do kneeling at all ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
In looking through the NASE standards I did not see anything that would preclude an instructor from teaching with students kneeling. The majority of standards seem pretty much the same I have seen in NAUI and PADI materials except for a few minor differences. The largest differences seem to be cutting the number of dives needed to get certified and allowing one day of training in OW to get certified as opposed two by almost all other agencies. I am not seeing anything new here other than the lowering of standards.
Actually, the standards have been raised. You can get by with as little as 60-75 minutes bottom time with other agencies and I have seen that done. My students usually double that time before they finish. Also, I don't see most other agencies requiring the skill to stop and turn. You simply can't do that on your knees. I'm sure if you try hard enough, you can find a way around just about every requirement.
Not seeing the standard for stop and turn. Not arguing that "your" class may exceed the standard but by standards as written skills done kneeling seem to be allowed just as with other agencies. I also see the allowing of a one day OW portion of the course being a lowering of standards. Although the standards suggest that instructors use two days it allows for one. Good instructors will always exceed standards but standards are written for those instructors in an agency which will do just the minimum and no more- in my opinion the way the standards for NASE they are lowering of standards as a one day course allows for less retention of skills even if you increase bottom time minimally.
My students get 200 minutes under water for the OW training dives.
The only divers I've worked with who have come to me with new certs and only 60-75 minutes logged in training dives were ones who were trained in cold-water locations wearing wetsuits. I won't name agencies or fault the instructors because if I had had my initial training in a cold quarry or lake or river in a wetsuit, I'd probably not have enjoyed a protracted tour portion of the dive either. I'd have wanted to get the skills out of the way and myself out of the water. But I will say that these 60-75 minute divers have had very limited control and needed quite a bit of mentoring to perform in a way I consider to be appropriate for an entry-level diver.
The only divers I've worked with who have come to me with new certs and only 60-75 minutes logged in training dives were ones who were trained in cold-water locations wearing wetsuits. I won't name agencies or fault the instructors because if I had had my initial training in a cold quarry or lake or river in a wetsuit, I'd probably not have enjoyed a protracted tour portion of the dive either. I'd have wanted to get the skills out of the way and myself out of the water. But I will say that these 60-75 minute divers have had very limited control and needed quite a bit of mentoring to perform in a way I consider to be appropriate for an entry-level diver.
- Messages
- 5,120
- Reaction score
- 1,969
- # of dives
- I just don't log dives
In addition to the concept that "Buoyancy is not just another skill on the check list, but that neutral IS the only way to be" and optional snorkel (I let each student decide after discussing pros & cons, whether they want to dive with the snorkel - usually after 1 or 2 dives, "do I have to have this?" "can I take this off now?")
Introduction of gas management is one big difference I have found.
Pg 37, NASE Standards & Proocedures - Open Water Diver Course
).
I now have added this to every class I teach, regardless of agency. (Even got an OK from a PADI guru)
Introduction of gas management is one big difference I have found.
Pg 37, NASE Standards & Proocedures - Open Water Diver Course
The whole concept of gas management, I feel was glossed over with generalities during my training. I was not introduced to SAC rates in any of my PADI courses including IDC until I started taking PADI Tech courses. By that time, I had gleened this info off the internet (Thanks again SB
).I now have added this to every class I teach, regardless of agency. (Even got an OK from a PADI guru)
I'll go lurk in the corner now and wait for the 
I had an interesting chat on this very topic with a member of the instructional division of PADI just a couple of weeks ago. He said that change takes time, and it [getting away from teaching students on their knees] will come in time. He said PADI supports the change. I (and another person with me) said that if PADI supports the change, that support needs to be quite a bit more visible than it is now. He said that the next round of instructional videos will be better in that regard, and we argued that a change like that was too little. We talked about the absolutely dramatic difference at the end of the CW sessions between students taught on their knees and students taught horizontally and neutrally buoyant. He agreed with that difference. We prodded him once more about why we are not seeing visible support. That was pretty much the end of it. It was encouraging to hear that the PADI hierarchy does recognize the issue, and perhaps he might carry our message in to get some results. Perhaps.
After our group submitted our article on this type of instruction to PADI, Karl Shreeves of PADI worked on the editing process prior to publication. Karl wanted to say what our original draft did not--it is OK to introduce skills on the knees as long as the skills are then performed in a diving position. The sentence he finally added for that purpose said that the transition should be made within the same session. If you are making that transition in the same session, I don't see the point in doing it on the knees first.
I actually disagree with this. I find students learn the initial skills much more quickly in a horizontal position. That is especially true of the regulator recovery skills. Once they really get the hang of it, everything else comes more quickly as well.
Yes. Once I saw how much better students do when they are never on their knees, I never looked back. It has been nearly 4 years since I have put a student on the knees for any reason.
I guess my question would be what part of that quoted material is required standards and what part is recommended procedures? As you know, the old PADI IM used to bold in blue font the required standards and leave the recommended procedures in normal font. With the recent split of the IM into a standards IM and a Guide to Teaching for recommended procedures, the difference is even more apparent. It's hard for me to imagine that the quoted text is actually part of the standards since it sounds like a suggestion for teaching.
Similar threads
