TDI Intro to Tech or AN/DP?

[elgoog]

Could it be that it's just cheaper if the instructor teaches ITT+AN/DP but issues only the AN/DP card, so you save the ITT certification fee as you won't need that card anyway. So formally you sign up only for AN/DP class; the duration, number of dives and course price depends on the diver's skill level.

Certification/card cost is tiddlywinks compared to the rest of your expenses during the classes. Highly doubt that's the reason for this approach.

 

[Efka76]

I was in your shoes few months ago and had a very similar experience before I started tech training. Before taking courses I contacted dive center, informed about my experience and told that I would like to take TDI ITT, sidemount, AN/DP courses. I was informed that I do not need to take ITT course as it is purpose to see whether I will like tech training and want to go further. So, I took Sidemount, AN/DP/Helitrox courses. From my experience I would say that it is pretty hard to do these courses at once. It took me 9 days. My instructor knew about my previous experience and spent more time with me. Actually these courses lasted every day from 7 a.m to 7-8 p.m. Also, instructor was really tough. I managed to complete courses but it was not very easy. The hardest thing for me was deploying DSMB and keeping in not moving during that task. Other tasks like reg change, s drills, v drills, floating reg issue solving with lost mask, ect. were quite easy. In my opinion, the best case would be to take Sidemount or ITT (to learn diving with backmount doubles) course, to have at least 20 dives in that configuration and then take AN/DP. Also, different people have different learning curve. 1 week before I took courses the same instructor had a student (PADI DM) with 400 dives. According to instructor that guy was in a much worse shape comparing to me despite the fact that he had a much bigger experience.

I would recommend you to take slower path, take ITT, learn diving with backmount doubles, do 20-30 dives in that configuration and then take AN/DP.

 

[Addicted2H2O]

Wow this has gotten to be quite the discussion! I'm actually quite glad to see it because as someone having strong interest in tech, I was just told essentially the same thing recently. Not that ITT was a waste of time or that I didn't need it; actually it wasn't even suggested. Rather the other interested diver and I were both told we would do AN & DP as separate courses and it would require a couple of additional dives, or we could do them combined and save a little money and do a couple less dives. It should be noted the this particular instructor has seen both of us dive during our DM course and although it wasn't stated I don't believe he would've offered if he felt uncomfortable with our current skills/abilities. He also stated that he has more than enough gear for us to learn/train with but would suggest starting to piece together our own kits so we become familiar with our own gear before going off on our own and doing deco dives after certification. Which makes sense to me. I've been diving my own rec kit pretty much since I completed AOW so I have no issue with that. And I'm currently in the market for a good BP/W anyway so that will be coming in the next few weeks/months. I will be the first to tell you I've never done any SM or doubles dives. But I do have a quick question about that. Wouldn't either of those configurations technically put you into a "tech" dive anyway since using both bottles on a single dive would likely through you into deco anyway? Unless of course you're doing a 40ft dive for 130 minutes?

I think I have to agree, though, that as long as the student is honest and up front with letting the instructor know his/her experience levels with XYZ gear and the instructor has a solid understanding that the necessary skills needed to complete the AN/DP certification aren't fully developed and additional time & attention may be required to hone them in then I don't see any issue with the student "skipping" the ITT course as a way to save a little cash. It's not about whether or not the student can afford it. Saving money is saving money, plain and simple. IF the instructor is comfortable enough with the student's current ability and willing to work with them more as necessary, the money that would pay for the ITT course could then be put toward the student's tech kit. Kind of a win for the student (as a perceived value) and a win for the shop that will be selling additional gear. Why is that seen as a bad thing?

And not completely off topic but not exactly on, either....why is GUE the only agency considered to give good quality instruction? Why does everything have to be "GUE this GUE that"? If GUE is the only agency anyone "should" consider for tech instruction, then why does any other tech instruction even exist? I honestly get exhausted hearing about GUE. I'm pretty certain they're a great training agency. I have not doubt about that. But I'm also 100% certain that if I can find great instruction that enables me to dive just as safely and proficiently without paying the extra cash, I'm definitely going to do so. Again I'm not saying GUE is bad by any means. I'm just saying they're not the only tech agency out there that produces good, safe divers. If anyone finds my sentiments offensive I apologize in advance, as offense was certainly not intended.

 

[Lorenzoid]

@Sh0rtBus , there's a lot in your post, but just to address the last bits, it has been said that although all tech courses at their cores teach pretty much the same things, GUE's forte is consistency and quality control. So maybe that's what one pays a premium for. Virtually nobody--no matter which GUE instructor one took Fundies with--shows up for a GUE Tech 1 class who can't hold a 20 ft stop in very good trim in blue water while task loaded, for example. There is virtually no need in the GUE world for remedial dives with an instructor to get a student ready for Tech 1, because the student presumably learned all that prerequisite stuff in Fundies and received GUE's seal of approval to move on. I get the impression that consistency and quality control may be looser with other agencies/instructors, and some instructors may allow a student more latitude than others. I recall at least one anecdote in one of these threads mentioning a diver with an AN/DP rating who apparently couldn't manage to do his deco without hanging onto a line. I'm not in a position to speculate here on how this impacts safety. I have long pondered the question of just how close to perfection is required for a diver to be "safe enough." GUE has specific standards, such as being within 20 degrees of horizontal trim.

Whether a student can "save cash" by taking an instructor up on the offer to do AN/DP over an extended time period, including some number of remedial dives to get the student up to the point where he's got the prerequisites down pat, depends on how many remedial dives are going to be needed, and that varies by individual student and, perhaps, also by individual instructor. If it's true that instructors have some latitude in determining when a student is good enough, then some instructors might at some point say "okay, we've done 10 remedial dives together, but you're still not ready, and I can't keep eating my time, so if you want to continue you're gonna have to start paying me for the extra work." Just looking at the varied experiences in this thread, Efka says he did it in 9 intensive days, Stuart says he did 20 dives with the instructor, and I am still working on the prerequisites after more dives and private coaching sessions with instructors than that. So, I believe there are a number of variables that could be considered in making the kind of judgments raised in your comment.

 

[stuartv]

I would recommend you to take slower path, take ITT, learn diving with backmount doubles, do 20-30 dives in that configuration and then take AN/DP.

Why do you say that taking them separately is slower?

One instructor might teach ItT in 3 days, then teach AN/DP the next week in 4 days.

Another instructor might teach only AN/DP, but spend, oh, I don't know, anywhere from 3 to 9 months on it.

Which way is "slower"?

 

[elgoog]

Wouldn't either of those configurations technically put you into a "tech" dive anyway since using both bottles on a single dive would likely through you into deco anyway? Unless of course you're doing a 40ft dive for 130 minutes?

Possible, yes - more so than in a single tank.
Likely, no - unless you're not paying attention to your dive profile or didn't plan it correctly. I'd argue that you could end up in this situation if you had a big single tanks as well. Almost all my local diving is with doubles and half the time I carry a stage as well with a DPV and I rarely go into mandatory deco.

Lots of reasons doubles are useful - multiple dives, min gas benefits for multiple dives, not having to swap out tanks on a boat, sometimes you have to plan for much larger reserves even if you're doing no deco (eg, scooter dive from shore), etc.

I think I have to agree, though, that as long as the student is honest and up front with letting the instructor know his/her experience levels with XYZ gear and the instructor has a solid understanding that the necessary skills needed to complete the AN/DP certification aren't fully developed and additional time & attention may be required to hone them in then

Time and attention and money. Is this additional time and attention coming for free? Unless you're being quoted a flat rate for completing AN/DP and told that taking as many days as needed to get fully developed is OK, it's not free. Most instructors charge a daily rate and/or give you an approx estimate of how many days are included in the course fee. Anything extra is charged according to their daily rate. Or is it the case that the AN/DP class will be 8 days (just an example) and we use as much time as necessary to work on developing basic skills, say 4 days. Do you then try to squeeze the AN/DP portion in the remaining 4 days or add extra days? Unless you have some special hook up with the instructor and they're willing to essentially mentor you for free, you're not saving money.
Believe me, it ain't cheap and it adds up. This is even after I was diving BP/W+longhose for over a year before getting doubles and over a year diving doubles before I did my first deco course and dives. I'm not prescribing any amount of time and the duration I took may be unusual because I'm an extremely mediocre diver on the best of days but still ...

I don't see any issue with the student "skipping" the ITT course as a way to save a little cash. It's not about whether or not the student can afford it. Saving money is saving money, plain and simple.

Tech diving is expensive. It doesn't have to be exorbitant but it's expensive, even in the context of SCUBA diving which in itself is an expensive hobby. I would encourage you to not make decisions based on saving a little cash at the expense of skipping foundational skills that you will use no matter what type of diving you end up doing.
If the argument is that you're not really skipping ITT, see my comment above about it not being free.

However you end up interpreting this, I think it's absolutely essential that you get real world experience and build comfort just diving your selected doubles configuration before you get into mandatory deco.

@Lorenzoid got the gist of what I was going to say about GUE vs non-GUE so I'll leave it at that. I'll just add that I have done tech training with GUE and TDI and had a great experience with both.

 

[Efka76]

Why do you say that taking them separately is slower?

One instructor might teach ItT in 3 days, then teach AN/DP the next week in 4 days.

Another instructor might teach only AN/DP, but spend, oh, I don't know, anywhere from 3 to 9 months on it.

Which way is "slower"?

@stuartv

My point was that it is not easy to do AN/DP without previous experience in sidemount / backmount doubles. I had combo of Sidemount/AN/DP/Helitrox courses and got a a small (4 days) experience in Sidemount diving configuration, which was sufficient to pas further courses. However, I saw that my sidemount skills are not on a level where I would be 100% satisfied. Mostly I was doing ok but there are still ways for improvement. In my subjective opinion it would be better to do Sidemount or ITT course and then polish skills during further 20-30 dives.... and then to take AN/DP class. In such way passing AN/DP course would be easier.

Also, I passed all these courses on rental gear and now I know what I need to buy. I just moved to Edinburgh and intend to dive a lot..... but I will need to learn drysuit diving. I predict that i will need maybe 20-30 dives to be comfortable in drysuit and sidemount configuration.

 

[BoltSnap]

I just moved to Edinburgh and intend to dive a lot

Good diving there?

 

[wedivebc]

Good diving there?

Check out St Abbs. Just down the road.

 

[stuartv]

@stuartv

My point was that it is not easy to do AN/DP without previous experience in sidemount / backmount doubles. I had combo of Sidemount/AN/DP/Helitrox courses and got a a small (4 days) experience in Sidemount diving configuration, which was sufficient to pas further courses. However, I saw that my sidemount skills are not on a level where I would be 100% satisfied. Mostly I was doing ok but there are still ways for improvement. In my subjective opinion it would be better to do Sidemount or ITT course and then polish skills during further 20-30 dives.... and then to take AN/DP class. In such way passing AN/DP course would be easier.

Also, I passed all these courses on rental gear and now I know what I need to buy. I just moved to Edinburgh and intend to dive a lot..... but I will need to learn drysuit diving. I predict that i will need maybe 20-30 dives to be comfortable in drysuit and sidemount configuration.

I understand. I was only trying to make the point that your statement about taking the slower option carries an implicit assumption about the lengths of the courses. And, in reality, the lengths of the courses is only defined as a minimum, by the standards. The actual length of a course is defined by the instructor. So, an AN/DP course from one instructor could still be the "slower" path than ItT plus a later AN/DP from a different instructor.

I am all for taking PLENTY of time to achieve adequate proficiency in all the requisite skills for earning an AN/DP certification. What I don't buy is making assumptions about the length or content of any given instructor's AN/DP class. Thus this long thread wherein I have stated repeatedly that I don't agree with telling someone they SHOULD take ItT (or TDI Sidemount) before taking AN/DP - or telling them that they should not, for that matter. The merit of doing that TOTALLY depends on the specific AN/DP instructor and what that instructor includes in their AN/DP class.