tank VIS and my health

[gonphishing]

yes I know. its there. no rattles

 

[Thalassamania]

Did it have a drip tube in it? Externals tell you nothing. I doubt that it had a drip tube, this would have prevented the rust from getting into your regulator. This is another LDS error.

 

[dannobee]

tank valve looked new. used for paintball sedum before I bought it. I did about a dozen dives with it.

Now the plot thickens. Compressors used for paintball may not produce the same quality air that is used in scuba. The filters aren't changed as frequently and excessive moisture entered the tank through those fills. I've seen some setups that don't even have filters and rely solely on the compressor's drains to reduce moisture. This is not adequate for anything you're going to breathe.

 

[JBRES1]

When you first looked into the tank at the rust spot, was the inside of the tank shiny or dull ?

After you have the tank in for hydro, its a good idea to clean the inside of the tank.
Hydro water sometimes isn't the cleanest, and if they don't dry the tank fast you get flash rust. I give my steel tanks a whip and an acid bath when they come back from hydro. They clean up real nice when I'm done.
Jim Breslin

 

[Colliam7]

No ... was a trip tube installed on the valve? Was it missing entirely?

tank valve looked new. used for paintball sedum before I bought it. I did about a dozen dives with it.

I think the question is whether there was a dip tube in place or not. There were no rattles, so the tube wasn't rolling around in the tank, but was there one attached to the valve? The valve can ‘look’ new, and the diptube be missing. If there was no dip tube, the possibility of particulate rust getting into the valve and regulator increases when the tank / diver goes inverted. Virtually every steel tank will demonstrate some level of flash rust, and that is not a reason in itself to reject a cylinder during inspection, or not dive with it. If it is extensive, to the point that the inspector sees accumulation of loose rust on the bottom of the standing tank, it is reasonable to recommend the cylinder be tumbled / cleaned and rinsed. A fine layer of flash rust will almost immediately develop again, but that is not a particular problem.

As for your lungs, a one time exposure to atomized rust is probably not a health issue. As for your regs, I agree with Thal – have them cleaned. If your filter was working I am little surprised that you had such an extensive coating of rust particles inside your hoses. The fact that the port plugs and hoses had not been tightened (my interpretation of ‘air flew out of every orifice from my 1st stage’), suggests that the tech hadn’t finished with the reg (how could IP be tested, for example). Was there a form of any kind that was returned with your regulator and used parts? A good shop will provide a checklist of what was done and the test pressures noted, along with the bag of use parts, after a reg has been serviced.

I have to agree with the comment about cylinders used for paintball. Fill air quality (moisture content and particulate contaminantion) may be poor, and I haven't seen many tank owners (even if they are divers) showing much concern for cylinder care.

the same shop took 3-4 months to rebuild my tank valve on another tank.

You are painting a rather 'interesting' picture of the particular shop here. Rebuilding a valve isn't rocket science and unless parts are simply not available, it takes about 15 minutes to actually disassemble, gross clean, replace parts (O-rings, valve seats, burst disk, crush washer, etc.) and reassemble and test.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

My thoughts are that the dip tube is probably missing. They are not in the valve when the valve is new and have to be screwed in before the valve is installed. A paintballer may not know this or see the need for the dip tube.

If it were in place, it's a long shot for tust to fall from the bottom of the tank into the dip tube and it requires a quick rotation to a near perfect inverted position to make this happen. With out the dip tube, the whole tank is a big funnel leading loose rust (or water) to the valve anytime the valve end of the tank is low.

A dime sized spot of rust on the bottom is normally very easy to remove with a wire brush attached to a drill - tumbling is not really needed. Also, I woudl be moe concerned about a dime sized spot than diffuse flash rust as a dense spot of rust may be hiding a pit and should in fact prevent the tank from passing a vip.

I suspect though, given the rest of your report, that the dime size spot was not a spot at all but rather just the place in the rounded bottom of the steel tank where all the loose rust in the tank gravitated to. Turning it upside down and shaking it a bit woudl have probably removed most of it.

So...on several levels your LDS is out to lunch and is apparently staffed by morons. I am not sure where they were certified to inspect tanks, but I fear for that agencies training standards.

I also agree that a filter should have minimized the amount of rust in the reg to at worst a fine red dusting. Normally large amounts of loose rust and no dip tube clogs the filter and just makes it noticeable harder to breathe (although that also is not a comforting thought). I am wondering if the filter is present.

That said, rust particles inside a regulator can easily embed in seats and once there can damage the orifices with resulting leaks.

As for the rusty lung issue, I am not a doctor and don't even play one on TV, but my thoughts are that iron oxide is pretty non toxic and would be no worse than dust that you inhale every day. Much of it will be caught in mucous in your throat on the way down and the remainder shoudl have been easily handled the same way your body deals with normal dust. I think where things get sticky is where the material is either toxic, allergenic or of a fiberous nature that causes problems expelling it and/or causes scarring in the lungs.

After 20 plus years using steel tanks, if anyone had "red lung" disease, it would probably be me, and I still breathe just fine. In fact, I'd bet aluminum oxide is more toxic in light of the aluminum/alzheimers connection that is occasisonally batted around.

 

[gonphishing]

Im not a 100% the drip tube was there. I thought I saw it? I installed one on my other 130. I took the tanks in for hydro and cleaning to santa rosa fire supply yesterday. I think Ill make a call today and ask about the drip tube. the only sign of rust was a dime size spot dead center bottom of tank. my guess is that he tried to knock it out of there and didn't clean it at all. and when it was pressurized it got air born. the drip tube should have been caught on the visual. especially with the rust spot. I really didn't look into the tank other than when I was shown the rust. in a day or two I should know more. I never got a check list with this LDS. I don't think Ill be back. I don't have many option here. and I have had my regs serviced at a few different locations. napa dive and sport seemed to do the best service. I did get a sheet there. and its the only place in the north bay I did get a check list. this guy is pretty thuro. its just a bit out of my way. Ill keep you all posted on the drip tube. I been diving the mares proton. never really liked it. I got a screaming deal on a closeout. Im going to upgrade this year to Oxycheq regs.

 

[gonphishing]

just an update. both drip tubes were there. and I retract that statement made about the checklist. it was present during my annual reg service. it was just a smaller sheet that differed from my usual LDS. thanks for all the feedback..

 

[gonphishing]

Now the plot thickens. Compressors used for paintball may not produce the same quality air that is used in scuba. The filters aren't changed as frequently and excessive moisture entered the tank through those fills. I've seen some setups that don't even have filters and rely solely on the compressor's drains to reduce moisture. This is not adequate for anything you're going to breathe.

I thought banked air was considered to have less moisture. which is what most paintball fills come from here. in a pinch I have filled my lp 95 at a local PB station. they have a good compressor and cleaner equipment than some of the LDS. I would think this might be better than say filling a tank on a dive boat or a LDS no the coast taking that salt air in the intakes? just a thought.

 

[truck1]

I thought banked air was considered to have less moisture. which is what most paintball fills come from here. in a pinch I have filled my lp 95 at a local PB station. they have a good compressor and cleaner equipment than some of the LDS. I would think this might be better than say filling a tank on a dive boat or a LDS no the coast taking that salt air in the intakes? just a thought.

Not necessarily. The air in a dive shop is supposed (key word supposed )to be checked quarterly for contaminents, to be certified as grade E. The air is actually sent off to a lab. The results are supposed to be accesable, for viewing.The filters are supposed to take out the contaminates, and or moisture,however there are factors which can lead to particles entering a bank system or a end user tank.Such as a compressor going bad and having an oil residue which the filters are not designed to stop, would be one. The volunteer FD I was with had a compressor issue that required us to dump all of the air out of the bank sytem, plus all of the cylinders on the trucks had to be dumped and refilled.I dont remeber exactly what the issue was but it had to do with oil getting into the fill air which was not what the filters were designed for.A compressor on a boat, would have the same filters as a land compressor, eliminating the same issues, plus probably a special filter to pull the moisture out of the air.
A paintball shop on the other hand, as far as I know do not have the same filter requirements. (Assuming they only fill paintball and not scuba or scba cylinders.)Therefore chances are the filters are changed less often if at all compared to a dive shop that changes them according to the manufacturer.