Tank failing Visual, shop condemned the tank?

[lowviz]

I think I'll defer to @JackD342 on this one, but if it were me, and the tank owner started looking upset with my shop, I might be inclined to eat this one, give them a used serviceable shop tank for free in exchange, and avoid the bad mouthing that I'd get otherwise.

That would be a good call.

So this is what the professional agencies have off-loaded onto the LDS's???

How about a clear, concise, unarguable (voluntary by consensus) standard across the entire recreational dive community?

 

[rjack321]

How about a clear, concise, unarguable (voluntary by consensus) standard across the entire recreational dive community?

I'll have that right up in a jiffy!

lol

 

[JackD342]

That would be a good call.

So this is what the professional agencies have off-loaded onto the LDS's???

How about a clear, concise, unarguable (voluntary by consensus) standard across the entire recreational dive community?

Just who do you think it is that is doing any off loading??

 

[lowviz]

Just who do you think it is that is doing any off loading??

The overarching aegis authority.

Oh, wait. Is there one???

 

[JohnnyC]

Since I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, let me give you the answer.

If you spent the money to take them to court and were able to prove they didn't follow their own standards re: the VIS, but nonetheless condemned your cylinder and damaged it, I would predict you'd win, given an impartial judge. Your agreeing to allow them to destroy the tank was essentially conditional upon them following their own guidelines in performing the inspection. If you prove they didn't, you win.

Having now spent $50,000 on attorneys fees and court costs, you'll get a free $300 tank!
(Maybe you could do it in Small Claims Court with Judge Judy, but you'd have 2 1/2 minutes to make your case, lol!)

Hey, I never said it was financially viable. But some people have **** you money and just like to prove the point.

I'm trying to think of some analogy for allowing someone to destroy your property "for cause," but it's against the law for them to do so in the first place, but I'm not coming up with anything off the top of my head at midnight and a quarter.....

Yes, it is often subjective. But they also train DOT hydro requalifiers on how to do a visual inspection, so the same standards and processes apply. Nothing makes the hydro guy's visual inspection better or more accurate, they just have the government conferred authority and responsibility to condemn.

But they also have an objective test that they can fall back on, as well as the weight of the CFR. A tank monkey isn't authorized by law to destroy property to condemn a cylinder, whereas a hydro facility is. So even with a waiver, I'm not so sure Joe Blow PSI-guy is actually covered.

 

[captain]

This somehow 'feels' correct to me.

I am the last person to support us becoming a nation of sheep. However, this must be balanced with one condoning (wink and a nod) truly unsafe practices to the unwary. So (and I will never put myself into this position) if someone presents me with a cylinder that clearly fails (as in FAILS) do I simply hand it back to them intact and tell them 'you gonna die if you use this?'

Yes, but a better reply is to say YOU feel the tank is unsafe and recommend the owner should bring it to an authorized re qualifier for testing. You will have then applied due diligence and the onus is on the owner. No different than if a mechanic tell a driver his brakes need service and are unsafe, the driver can have them serviced, take the car to another mechanic or do nothing.

 

[2airishuman]

The standard behavior at the LDSs I patronize, if the tank is failing viz, is that:

• They do not charge the customer anything
• The words they use are "I do not believe that it is safe to fill this tank"
• They will show the customer exactly what concerns them. If internal, using a proper tank light.
• They return the tank undamaged and unmarked but with the valve uninstalled.

I do my own viz in most cases but if there are any questions in my mind I take the cylinder to a dive shop. There have been rare instances when someone has "failed" a VIP where I have taken it to another shop and said, "someone else looked at this and said it was unsafe to fill, what do you think?" And in one of those cases a more careful, more thorough check where the depth of the pits was *actually measured* rather than eyeballed resulted in the cylinder being passed.

I buy used cylinders. There are many of them that have been failed and scrapped. They were unsafe and that was the best outcome for everyone.

But condemning cylinders showing show slight corrosion that careful, objective measurements show is within the allowed amount does nothing to improve safety.

So, if you're an LDS, and you're going to be in the business of XXXXIng out markings on the cylinder, then you better measure, and follow the standards in the CFRs and the CGA pamphlets, and document your findings, and only XXXX those cylinders that actually fail, not the ones that "look bad" or don't meet your "personal standards."

 

[TheGraveyardDiver]

So, what if the visual inspector is a RIN number holder for visual inspections, but is not a re-qualifier?
My RIN number permits me to do DOT visual inspections, but does not permit me to do hydrostatic testing.
I'm still required to adhere to DOT standards, and have to comply with the DOT man coming around and "inspecting" my shop, but I don't do hydros.

None of the dive shops around here consider the requalifier visual inspection as valid, and none of the hydro testers around here put a VIP decal on a cylinder they've hydro'd. If I was to show up at either of my LDS's with a cylinder that was hydro'd yesterday, neither one of them would fill it until it has a VIP decal.

 

[Bob DBF]

None of the dive shops around here consider the requalifier visual inspection as valid, and none of the hydro testers around here put a VIP decal on a cylinder they've hydro'd. If I was to show up at either of my LDS's with a cylinder that was hydro'd yesterday, neither one of them would fill it until it has a VIP decal.

Times change, back when they started doing the VIP, I never needed a sticker during the first year of the hydro, since the inspection was done. As time went on I guess the shops needed the extra revenue. The VIP is a scuba industry convention, and what passes the inspection can vary widely from shop to shop. I don't get how a VIP trumps a DOT inspection, it dosen't make sense to me either.



Bob