Taking GPS coordinates of a site... captain's permission?

[ScubaSteve]

Unless I am told ahead of time that the dive location is proprietary information, there is no reason to believe it is.

With this I actually do agree. But where the disconnect comes in for me is the people that threaten to sue, physically confront, demand a return trip and money back......all when informed by the crew of the unwritten policy. OK, so they did not tell you up front. What kind of person does it take to ruin the trip for 5-11 other divers just because he was asked to stop doing something that has zero impact on the diving itself? Give me a break. Sometimes :turd: happens but as long as the request is put out there in a reasonable manner and the request will not impair your ability to enjoy the dives safely, then STFU and enjoy the dives (and don't worry about tipping because that type of self-centered individual likely goes out of their way to find a problem to get out of tipping). Then when you get home, come to ScubaBoard and whine about how terrible and evil they are (the OP was not asked in a reasonable manner and simply asked a question so this is not directed at them). Never go on their boat again and next time, know that if logging locations is THAT important to you, maybe you should take some responsibility and ask up front......not wait until you find out by accident one way or the other.

Again, it all boils down to trust. If notified that it is against policy (unwritten or otherwise), then the operator is then placing trust in you (the diver) to comply. Only you (the diver) can decide whether you are trustworthy or not.

 

[nimoh]

I never thought this would be such a hot topic. I'm with ScubaSteve, I would like to know ahead of time, but if I don't, then it probably won't change anything very much, other than mentioning to the owner that they should probably notify people ahead of time.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I never thought this would be such a hot topic.

There are likely to be more "hot topics" until winter gives way to spring

 

[redacted]

How did things transition from "whos the captain to tell you what to do with your gear , equipment, phone camrea ect" to "the diver has a sence of entitlement"? The positions are not related so one can not be the arguement for the other. You have boat operators that say yo have to waive any liability on them of you cant board. The boat is a taxi. You cant very well absolve you arlf of any responsibility other than transportation and still demand to control conduct. There are things that are required because of law. Like fishing license and contraband. The captain is enforcing maritine and local statutes. Most everythng else are matters of curtousy. Like the bucket for camera's only. Smoking and many more. Your coopreation is asked on these matters because it is in the intrest of all aboard. I can easily take the position that once i have paid my financial obligation to your revenue has been met. I owe you nothing more. In the spirit of cooperation between owners and divers other REQUESTS are made. In this case the issue of location. No law or statute requires me to comply. The captain can shut the wheel house and i can not go into it. But the captain has no jurisdiction over what i listen to on my walkman or legaly use what the statutes allow me to use. In this case the gps signals that are available to all. I think there is an assumption being presented by the owners that our use of the ocation datta will used to thier detrament. Many people consider these requests a polite way of saying that they are not trust worthy and becomes a personal attack. I understand not only both sides of the argument, but that a situation that normally is not a problem can get out of control till it is believed that all owners are paranoid fruit cakes and that all divers are there to steel the food off of someones table. I dont think either one is true but will agree to accept that there is that 1 percent of both sides that is the EXCEPTION TO THE RULE. Me i will take my lat's and longs probably to the minute not to the part of a second and when i get home i will put another thumb tack in the world map or a dot on the globe.

You do owe him whatever is in the contract as your obligations. That could include things such as restrictions on smoking, use of facilities, and the use of position recording devices. There are legal ways for boats to protect sensitive and valuable information. Their failure to exercise those options to the fullest leaves me suspect of their operations.

---------- Post added January 10th, 2013 at 10:43 AM ----------

With this I actually do agree. But where the disconnect comes in for me is the people that threaten to sue, physically confront, demand a return trip and money back......all when informed by the crew of the unwritten policy. OK, so they did not tell you up front. What kind of person does it take to ruin the trip for 5-11 other divers just because he was asked to stop doing something that has zero impact on the diving itself? Give me a break. Sometimes :turd: happens but as long as the request is put out there in a reasonable manner and the request will not impair your ability to enjoy the dives safely, then STFU and enjoy the dives (and don't worry about tipping because that type of self-centered individual likely goes out of their way to find a problem to get out of tipping). Then when you get home, come to ScubaBoard and whine about how terrible and evil they are (the OP was not asked in a reasonable manner and simply asked a question so this is not directed at them). Never go on their boat again and next time, know that if logging locations is THAT important to you, maybe you should take some responsibility and ask up front......not wait until you find out by accident one way or the other.

Again, it all boils down to trust. If notified that it is against policy (unwritten or otherwise), then the operator is then placing trust in you (the diver) to comply. Only you (the diver) can decide whether you are trustworthy or not.

I agree that it is silly for anyone to overreact to this and that such overreactions may have consequences. But I also see no reason to stop using electronic devices if it does not present a safety hazard or interfere with operations and was not part of the contract for service. The ball is then in the boats court for what will happen next. One perfectly legal recourse might be to change the planned dive site if they detect the use of GPS devices. But, if the goal is to steal such secret locations, it would be quite simple to operate such devices without the knowledge of the crew.

 

[Wookie]

Well, first of all, I'm not going to read 17 pages to figure out if what I'm saying has been said, and second, I dive mostly published sites, and a few that aren't, but I don't tell anyone where they are until I've seen them for myself anyway, so I don't care what site numbers you want from my boat, or how you obtain them. I will tell you, however, that this is a holdover from the commercial and headboat fishing industry, and courts have upheld a Captain's right to keep his numbers secret. A Captain's numbers are his livelihood, and his private possession. Just taking you there to fish does not constitute permission to capture those numbers. Courts uphold time and time again that a charterboat captain's numbers are part of his work product and do not belong to a fisherman or a vessel owner.

I know this because a charterboat captain in Freeport Texas, someone I was acquainted with, left the employ of the boat on poor terms. The boat had been sold and he no longer desired to work on the boat for the new owner. As he left, he wiped the GPS. He of course downloaded the waypoints before he did so, and transferred those waypoints to the GPS of the boat he went to work for. The company he left sued him as well as the company Monte went to work for to get the numbers claiming that the numbers were purchased with the boat, and therefore stolen from them. The court disagreed, and ruled that the numbers belonged to the Captain, not to the boat company. If the boat company the Captain worked for originally wanted the numbers, they might have had a claim that the captain was working for them, burning their fuel, using their boat when he developed the numbers, but that company was out of the fishing business and desired no claim.

Similarly to fishing, the captain is taking you diving. You hired him because of his expertise, his dive site numbers, and the amenities of his boat. His numbers are his work product, and the court will uphold that. You are renting his work product by going on his charter, you have no right to them, according to the courts. I've heard stories of fishing charter captains throwing iPhones and hand-held GPS's overboard.

 

[iluvtheocean]

Wookie,
Thank you for the information from a Captain's perspective.

What you've said proves the point of an earlier post -- maritime law vs local/federal laws can be different and the average fisherman/diver would not be aware that it is the captain's right - I for one wasn't. So like it's been said in the past -- if the captain doesn't want anyone to capture any gps co-ords - let the customer know ahead of time either during booking or on their website to avoid any unpleasantness. and for those who might be tempted to --- instead of chucking the phones, etc in the water to turn it over to the Coast Guard instead - so they can tell em to delete the recording and the captain is protected by the law.

 

[muzikbiz22]

instead of chucking the phones, etc in the water to turn it over to the Coast Guard instead - so they can tell em to delete the recording and the captain is protected by the law.

I will preface this with I am all for being respectful and not recording GPS numbers for a site, if I am so advised in advance not to do so. No problem, even though I think I am actually within my rights to do so. It's what you do with "those numbers" after the fact. Much the same way I'm allowed to take pictures of people in public, or at a concert or sporting event. It's what you do or don't do with them, after the fact. I'm allowed to record/TIVO my favorite tv shows. If I turn around and use those recordings for something questionable, then there's probably going to be an issue.

I believe that Wookie is basically correct, in that GPS Numbers related to a Boat/Business can be considered "Property of . .& Intellectual Property", etc., and would basically be granted the same rights as any other intellectual property with regards to a business. I think Wookies post leans towards the physical theft of that property. I think. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Now with regards to the above post/quote/statement; I'm pretty sure it would be illegal for the Coast Guard or any law enforcement agency to delete ANYTHING or tell you to delete ANYTHING. A warrant would be required for that, OR if said "GPS device" was used in the committal of a crime, they may confiscate under exigent circumstances. They may NOT delete anything, or tell you to delete anything, or throw overboard, then it would be destruction of evidence or evidence tampering, and that within itself is illegal. Same basic concept goes for photography. Correct me if I am wrong here.

AGAIN, I'm all for being respectful of the captain, and his "secret spots", etc. I'm a private boat owner myself, I GET IT.

This post does NOT constitute legal advice or fact.

 

[Wookie]

I will preface this with I am all for being respectful and not recording GPS numbers for a site, if I am so advised in advance not to do so. No problem, even though I think I am actually within my rights to do so. It's what you do with "those numbers" after the fact. Much the same way I'm allowed to take pictures of people in public, or at a concert or sporting event. It's what you do or don't do with them, after the fact. I'm allowed to record/TIVO my favorite tv shows. If I turn around and use those recordings for something questionable, then there's probably going to be an issue.

I believe that Wookie is basically correct, in that GPS Numbers related to a Boat/Business can be considered "Property of . .& Intellectual Property", etc., and would basically be granted the same rights as any other intellectual property with regards to a business. I think Wookies post leans towards the physical theft of that property. I think. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Now with regards to the above post/quote/statement; I'm pretty sure it would be illegal for the Coast Guard or any law enforcement agency to delete ANYTHING or tell you to delete ANYTHING. A warrant would be required for that, OR if said "GPS device" was used in the committal of a crime, they may confiscate under exigent circumstances. They may NOT delete anything, or tell you to delete anything, or throw overboard, then it would be destruction of evidence or evidence tampering, and that within itself is illegal. Same basic concept goes for photography. Correct me if I am wrong here.

AGAIN, I'm all for being respectful of the captain, and his "secret spots", etc. I'm a private boat owner myself, I GET IT.

I can't imagine any LE Agency, including the CG doing any more than shrugging their shoulders and rolling their eyes if called to a boat to confiscate an iPhone.....

 

[smellzlikefish]

Well said, Wookie.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

I will preface this with I am all for being respectful and not recording GPS numbers for a site, if I am so advised in advance not to do so. No problem, even though I think I am actually within my rights to do so. It's what you do with "those numbers" after the fact. Much the same way I'm allowed to take pictures of people in public, or at a concert or sporting event. It's what you do or don't do with them, after the fact. I'm allowed to record/TIVO my favorite tv shows. If I turn around and use those recordings for something questionable, then there's probably going to be an issue.

I believe that Wookie is basically correct, in that GPS Numbers related to a Boat/Business can be considered "Property of . .& Intellectual Property", etc., and would basically be granted the same rights as any other intellectual property with regards to a business. I think Wookies post leans towards the physical theft of that property. I think. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Now with regards to the above post/quote/statement; I'm pretty sure it would be illegal for the Coast Guard or any law enforcement agency to delete ANYTHING or tell you to delete ANYTHING. A warrant would be required for that, OR if said "GPS device" was used in the committal of a crime, they may confiscate under exigent circumstances. They may NOT delete anything, or tell you to delete anything, or throw overboard, then it would be destruction of evidence or evidence tampering, and that within itself is illegal. Same basic concept goes for photography. Correct me if I am wrong here.

AGAIN, I'm all for being respectful of the captain, and his "secret spots", etc. I'm a private boat owner myself, I GET IT.

I am not a lawyer either, but have a working knowledge of IP laws (being a patent holder and married to a publisher, we deal with a lot of this stuff).

Stealing (copying or destroying) company data is illegal. Recording where you have been with your own GPS is not. I realize the numbers are the same in the end, but its how you get them that matters. If you sign a contract that prohibits your from using a GPS and do so anyway, then you can get you butt sued, but its not a criminal offense and the CG is not likely to do anything. If the captain ask you not to record and you do anyway, he can kick you off the boat just as he can for just about any reason he wants, but not much more, legally anyway. I am sure he could make life miserable for you if he wants, for a while anyway.

The fair use doctrine for recording is not applicable. You are not copying anything from the boat, only the numbers broadcast from the satellites.