Suunto Computers - Final Conclusion.

[charlier]

Excellent thread. Two comments regarding @Diving Dubai and @kelemvor thoughtful posts.

As a guide that works (part-time) in Indonesia, most of our LOB divers use Sunnto dive computers, some use Mare or Scubapro. I use a Perdix, with a Suunto backup. The backup is mostly for my dive team. We commonly dive in remote locations in eastern Indonesia and the nearest medical care is 24+ hrs away and a chamber is at least 48 hrs away. I always evaluate my group diving ability, experience, and overall dive fitness during the first dive day. At the beginning of our trip, I lead a team discussion regarding our goals, objectives, daily dive plans, maximum depth, dive time, NDL, and surface/subsurface conditions. I always ask about prior medical conditions, concerns, personal hyrdation, and emergency procedures. We try to separate divers using nitrox or air, as well as photographers.

Lockouts. With firm, but gentle control of my team, I have rarely experienced lockouts with divers using Sunnto computers. If the thermocline is relatively deep (e.g., 35 m) as we look for hammerheads, we frequently check NDL and remaining gas. I am sure many SB posters agree that after a few dives, one can predict fairly accurately remaining gas in a group or your buddy. A few experienced divers might have a small deco obligation, but it always is removed during the ascent and long stop between 6-4m. With such group management, it’s rare to see a lockout. The exception to rule - a few divers have no idea how their computer works, nor worry about lockouts. They usually rely on their buddy. Here, I start to pull my hair out... let’s leave it for now.

Repetitive dives. My limited experience is based 100s++ dives on my Perdix and way more dives using my Sunnto (D6i) in the last 6 or 7 years. Our dive trips vary from 6 days to 12 days. During a crossing trip, many days are limited to 3 dives/day. Some of our dives are deep (30-35m). Towards the end of our trip, many divers are a bit tired, so I usually limit the depth of the dives. When appropriate, we offer 4 days per day. The SI are usually 90 mins to 120 mins. We rarely limit dive time, but most divers using an 11 liter (AL80) have about 60 min dive time. With our groups separated by nitrox and air, it’s rare that a Sunnto computer limits our dive time.

Perhaps, our dive customers represent a small and non-representative dive population. Traveling all the way to remote Indonesia provides a filter, for sure. With the explosion of new LoB’s in Raja Ampat, the Banda Sea and crossing trips, I suspect that lockouts, NDL limits, and dive-related injuries will increase.

 

[Hatul]

Excellent thread. Two comments regarding @Diving Dubai and @kelemvor thoughtful posts.

Towards the end of our trip, many divers are a bit tired, so I usually limit the depth of the dives. When appropriate, we offer 4 days per day. The SI are usually 90 mins to 120 mins. We rarely limit dive time, but most divers using an 11 liter (AL80) have about 60 min dive time. With our groups separated by nitrox and air, it’s rare that a Sunnto computer limits our dive time.

Perhaps, our dive customers represent a small and non-representative dive population. Traveling all the way to remote Indonesia provides a filter, for sure. With the explosion of new LoB’s in Raja Ampat, the Banda Sea and crossing trips, I suspect that lockouts, NDL limits, and dive-related injuries will increase.

Perhaps you’ve had good results with Suunto computers because of your long SI? The Suuntos are very sensitive to short SI and many dives in Cozumel have a SI just over 1 hr if waiting on the boat. That may be causing the problems in Coz diving.

 

[Magnus Lundstedt]

My exposure to Suunto computers is a few years old but I doubt they changed their algorithm. If your’e a dive professional and need to do a lot of dives you should likely stay clear of Suunto.
I met a dive guide in Cozumel a few years ago who sold his Suunto for this reason.

It is different between different models, I have experiences that the old model of Zoop is much more limiting when it comes to repetetive dives than the other models i have experiences of. What model did the DG you met use?

Perhaps you’ve had good results with Suunto computers because of your long SI? The Suuntos are very sensitive to short SI and many dives in Cozumel have a SI just over 1 hr if waiting on the boat. That may be causing the problems in Coz diving.

Many divers i know working in SEA with 3-6 dives a day and often SI around 1 hour, between dives i na pair (2 dives in the morning, 2 in the afternoon and 2 in the evening) and many of them use Suunto computers, they do not seem to have a problem, but tell me that I should not get a Zoop if i want to do repetetive dives.

I think this "Suntoo can't do repetetive dives" as you hear many say come from the fact that the old Zoop have a fairly hard penalty for repetetive dives, and then someone think that all Suunto are the same.

I have most of my dives on a Cobra on vaccation, 2-4 dives a day for 5-8 days, no problem so far. Got a D6i today, i will see how it will preform.

 

[dmaziuk]

From reading all of the threads here, I was still not able to determine exactly what the problem is with the Suunto algorithm. From everything I read, it seemed like the only complaint was that it may end up taking you out of the water a few minutes sooner than other computers would. To me, that seems like a good thing! Is anyone saying that the Suunto algorithm is actually more dangerous or could kill or injure divers more often than other computers? I personally am only interested in recreational diving. I love the display on the Suunto Eon Core

If you're looking at Eon, you should stop reading "the threads here". What they're all complaining about has nothing to do with Eons. if you're only interested in rec diving, you probably needn't care about
- decompression stops that are deeper than currently considered "optimal" and
- having to use Suunto dive planning software to plan your decompression dives.

 

[Kobayashi maru]

*rant on*
I've been watching this form for awhile now. Also looking at forum history etc. Seems like most of the evidence for or against suunto is anecdotal. In other words **** evidence. It also smacks of confirmation bias and motivated reasoning.

As a new diver looking to get rational advice on purchases its a little disheartening. Almost everyone has more knowledge and information than me but every thread on the topic of algorithms degenerates into a murky mess of logical fallacies and BS stories. " I gave up on mine', 'I've never had a problem with mine'. As a group get your **** together.
*rant off*

Carry on.

 

[KeithG]

*rant on*
I've been watching this form for awhile now. Also looking at forum history etc. Seems like most of the evidence for or against suunto is anecdotal. In other words **** evidence. It also smacks of confirmation bias and motivated reasoning.

As a new diver looking to get rational advice on purchases its a little disheartening. Almost everyone has more knowledge and information than me but every thread on the topic of algorithms degenerates into a murky mess of logical fallacies and BS stories. " I gave up on mine', 'I've never had a problem with mine'. As a group get your **** together.
*rant off*

Carry on.

If you own a suunto it is very easy to "get evidence" about algorithm quirks. Just check the dive planner.

Do a dive. Wait 59 minutes and check your allowed NDL for the next dive. Wait until 61 minutes of SI and check again. Do this a few times.

 

[Kobayashi maru]

If you own a suunto it is very easy to "get evidence" about algorithm quirks. Just check the dive planner.

Do a dive. Wait 59 minutes and check your allowed NDL for the next dive. Wait until 61 minutes of SI and check again. Do this a few times.

Yeah. I don't own a suunto. Sorry for the rant.

I guess this is my issue. This is a forum with all th faults of this type of forum. Your method is unavailable to me. Has anyone actually done this? Is it replicable? Is it actually something which tells me about the real world?

 

[outofofficebrb]

Long story short, I have dived a Suunto for over 100 dives. My buddy/partner still dives with one but I now dive a Shearwater Perdix. Almost all my dives are vacation dives, usually liveaboard and resort diving for a minimum of 7 days on a liveaboard and 5 days at a resort. I am usually doing 4-5 dives every single day (nitrox) with no rest days. On these trips, I am away diving for a minimum of 2 weeks, usually 3 weeks at a time so my anecdotal evidence is not from a one-time experience. I do these trips about twice a year. My Suunto served me well during all of this and I can’t think of a time where it really threw a wrench in my dive plan because my NDL was getting too short.

It’s very intuitive to use and you can always find someone who knows how to use it or can help you because they used to own one or owns one now, etc. I like my current computer better but I think they are still appropriate for many divers. Just know that it does penalize if you dive a see-saw profile, have fast ascents, and skip safety stops, etc. but do remember those are things that are probably not safe practices to begin with. You shouldn’t be doing that anyway.

 

[Saboteur]

If you own a suunto it is very easy to "get evidence" about algorithm quirks. Just check the dive planner.

Do a dive. Wait 59 minutes and check your allowed NDL for the next dive. Wait until 61 minutes of SI and check again. Do this a few times.

I wouldn't call that a quirk though. If one was diving tables and checked the NDL for the next dive with increasing surface interval you get increased allowed NDL and less RNT with lower pressure groups. Aren't all computers doing that... giving increasing NDL with increased SI?

 

[dmaziuk]

Wait 59 minutes and check your allowed NDL for the next dive. Wait until 61 minutes of SI and check again. Do this a few times.

Huh? You do know that if you wait 6 hours your NDL for the next dive's gonna be 4 minutes, and if you wait 6 hours 1 minute it's going to be 8? That's how the model works.

Is yours giving you less NDL after longer SI? Or are you saying Suuntos are bad because that quirky math has too many numbers and stuff?